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Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: February 13, 2022, 10:41:25 PM

[bankshot1]

I think mashing the records together is a mistake.

Separate and equal may be the right answer.

There are AL records. NL records, MLB records, and Negro League records, recognize them all, but in a context that makes sense.

[Hamilton Samuels]

I think mashing the records together is a mistake.

Separate and equal may be the right answer.

There are AL records. NL records, MLB records, and Negro League records, recognize them all, but in a context that makes sense.

History is always ready for a rewrite from someone. 

Truly examining history and records of any era means preparing to consider one's own confirmation biases and one's own cognitive dissonance. Such a discipline is difficult work, and well beyond the ken of most MLB execs or the delusional sports press.

Otherwise, Jamie Moyer would be in the Hall of Fame.

[bankshot1]

I'm all for analytical pursuits and closely examaning and comping stats. Its basically what I've done for decades.

I just think dumping the Negro League stats into the MLB stats is a poor methodology and in most cases will lead to irrelevant conclusions.

And Jamie Moyer was not in my opinion a Hall of Fame major league pitcher pitcher.

But rather a very old one

if you want to celebrate his age that's fine.

So send him a card.

[Hamilton Samuels]

I'm all for analytical pursuits and closely examaning and comping stats. Its basically what I've done for decades.

I just think dumping the Negro League stats into the MLB stats is a poor methodology and in most cases will lead to irrelevant conclusions.

And Jamie Moyer was not in my opinion a Hall of Fame major league pitcher pitcher.

But rather a very old one

if you want to celebrate his age that's fine.

So send him a card.

 It's not just the methodology on the Negro League state, it's the idea that MLB is going to rewrite a history of exclusion by deciding that statistics now create inclusion.


As to Mr. Moyer...Find me someone who won 200 games in the modern era after the age of 30 who did not throw a knuckleball. Then we can talk about pitching in both leagues and how difficult it is to stay healthy and relevant enough to accumulate those wins.

[Yankguy1]

 Tommy John.

[bankshot1]

Longevity and winning games with close to 5.00 ERA for his last 10 years doesn't make a compelling case for me.

He played on some good teams that gave him run support.

We disagree on Moyer.

But 2% of the BBWAA agree with you.

[kidcarter8]

There really isnt a case for Moyer

[bankshot1]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30605849/hall-fame-pitcher-phil-niekro-famous-signature-knuckleball-dies-81

RIP Phil Niekro

Phil Niekro, a pitcher who used his signature knuckleball to fool generations of hitters and craft a Hall of Fame career, died Saturday night in his sleep after a long battle with cancer, the Atlanta Braves announced Sunday. He was 81.

Niekro, inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1997, was one of baseball's most prolific and durable pitchers, using his "butterfly" pitch to win 318 games in a career that spanned 24 seasons, including 21 with the Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves.


Niekro joined Lou Brock, Whitey Ford, Bob Gibson, Al Kaline, Joe Morgan and Tom Seaver as Hall of Famers who died in 2020 -- the most ever to pass away in a calendar year, according to Hall of Fame spokesman Jon Shestakofsky.

This fucking year can't end soon enough

[Hamilton Samuels]

There really isnt a case for Moyer

https://www.mlb.com/cut4/the-hall-of-fame-case-for-jamie-moyer-c263202568

Tommy John.

Sorry, my mistake. How many won 200 games after the age of 33?



269 wins, 200 after the age of 33...

[Hamilton Samuels]

According to baseballreference.com:


Similar Pitchers
Dennis Martinez (894.2)
Bartolo Colon (881.1)
Jack Morris (864.5) *
Jim Kaat (859.8)
Burleigh Grimes (859.0) *
Tommy John (855.6)
Frank Tanana (854.3)
Tom Glavine (850.3) *
Red Ruffing (847.4) *
Andy Pettitte (839.8)


* - Signifies Hall of Famer

And while we are at it, Jim Kaat belongs, too.

[josh]

I don't know what's wrong with our emojis, but as we don't have them but the program keeps trying to put them in, I cleaned it up, Ham. Hope you don't mind.

[kidcarter8]

Jamie Moyer was similar to Tom Glavine?

This is what you are going with?

[josh]

Jamie Moyer was similar to Tom Glavine?

This is what you are going with?

Having a hard time reading, are you?

Baseball Reference said it. You want to argue with them and their stats? Knock yourself out.

[Hairy Lime]

Jamie Moyer was a good pitcher who had a unique back end to his career. Being great compared to other 45 year old pitchers is not the same as being great. At no time was he ever elite. He was never one of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. He does not deserve a plaque.

[josh]

Jamie Moyer was a good pitcher who had a unique back end to his career. Being great compared to other 45 year old pitchers is not the same as being great. At no time was he ever elite. He was never one of the 10 best pitchers in baseball. He does not deserve a plaque.

And the same Baseball-Reference cite that compares him to a bunch of other pitchers, some of whom are in the Hall presents HoF criteria and he is far below what would do it. And that one or two who are also far below it are in is not evidence that he should be, just a suggestion that perhaps they should not.

Now, Jim McCormick ought to be in the Hall and should have been decades ago!

And I would put Luis Tiant in the Hall well before Jamie Moyer.

And I liked Jamie Moyer. But no HoF for him.