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Author Topic: American League  (Read 30493 times)

kiidcarter8

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Re: American League
« Reply #1335 on: January 23, 2019, 02:00:36 PM »

"Missing helps Jamie Moyet's case"

No.

One was consistently excellent

The other simply not.
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HamiltonIII

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Re: American League
« Reply #1336 on: January 23, 2019, 02:52:51 PM »

 Moyer: 25 years in the majors. Just four other pitchers played that long.

 269-209 record and a 4.25 ERA, ranks 16th all-time in games started (638) and 35th in victories.

Only 34 wins came before age 30. Let that sink in. 235 wins after turning 30. That is artistry.

For age 30 and older pitchers the numbers are:


WINS
1 Cy Young 316
2 Phil Niekro 287
3 Warren Spahn 277
4 Gaylord Perry 238
5. Jamie Moyer 235
6 Randy Johnson 227
7 Early Wynn 217
T8 Grover C Alexander 213
T8 Lefty Grove 213
10 Greg Maddux 205


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josh

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Re: American League
« Reply #1337 on: January 23, 2019, 03:29:38 PM »

Only 34 wins came before age 30. Let that sink in. 235 wins after turning 30. That is artistry.

Had he played more for the Red Sox, you'd be claiming it was steroids, not artistry!

You are too funny.

He does still lead the majors in one career category: most home runs given up.
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Yankguy1

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Re: American League
« Reply #1338 on: January 23, 2019, 03:33:12 PM »

I'm not sure the HR thing is a great argument AGAINST Moyer when you note who comes right after him. 
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josh

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Re: American League
« Reply #1339 on: January 23, 2019, 03:37:19 PM »

I'm not sure the HR thing is a great argument AGAINST Moyer when you note who comes right after him.

It is not an argument against him or for him, just a note that it is the only thing he led in for his career.

Mussina is not an argument for Moyer, that's all.
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Yankguy1

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Re: American League
« Reply #1340 on: January 23, 2019, 03:38:22 PM »

Gotcha.
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whiskeypriest

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Re: American League
« Reply #1341 on: January 23, 2019, 06:38:07 PM »

The Hall of Fame is not for people who remain mediocre for a very very long time.
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kiidcarter8

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Re: American League
« Reply #1342 on: January 23, 2019, 06:54:40 PM »

Talkin about Moyer like he's Biggio.  Funny.
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HamiltonIII

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Re: American League
« Reply #1343 on: January 23, 2019, 11:07:42 PM »

Only 34 wins came before age 30. Let that sink in. 235 wins after turning 30. That is artistry.

Had he played more for the Red Sox, you'd be claiming it was steroids, not artistry!

You are too funny.

He does still lead the majors in one career category: most home runs given up.

Thanks for demonstrating your ignorance of the game.

Guess Spahn, Roberts, and Jenkins were lousy pitchers,, too. Oh wait, none of them  pitched in the DH Steroids ERA of baseball.

That, and consider how you have to pitch a long, long, time and a lot of innings. Do that in small parks, too. Like Wrigley, Fenway, CBP, and Colorado.

Again, wins after age 30. Stunning company he keeps.
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josh

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Re: American League
« Reply #1344 on: January 24, 2019, 01:16:40 AM »

Only 34 wins came before age 30. Let that sink in. 235 wins after turning 30. That is artistry.

Had he played more for the Red Sox, you'd be claiming it was steroids, not artistry!

You are too funny.

He does still lead the majors in one career category: most home runs given up.

Thanks for demonstrating your ignorance of the game.

Guess Spahn, Roberts, and Jenkins were lousy pitchers,, too. Oh wait, none of them  pitched in the DH Steroids ERA of baseball.

That, and consider how you have to pitch a long, long, time and a lot of innings. Do that in small parks, too. Like Wrigley, Fenway, CBP, and Colorado.

Again, wins after age 30. Stunning company he keeps.

"Wins after age 30."

Tom Brady, then? GOAT!

There is not a Hall of Aged, Utley. He was not as good a pitcher as the others in that list.

Moyer's "Top 10" finishes for pitchers over 30:
Wins (6th)
Innings Pitched (6th)
Strike Outs (9th)
Games Started (2nd)
Home Runs (2nd)
Hits (6th)
Earned Runs (2nd)
Hit by Pitch (4th)
Batters faced (6th)

9 lists, all of them longevity based and four of them negative categories. Who else is on that Wins list with him, since you call attention to his company:
Cy Young is on 20 of those lists, including ERA, WHIP, and Shut Outs.
Phil Niekro is on 15, including Complete Games and Shut Outs.
Warren Spahn is on 13, including Complete Games and Shut Outs.
Gaylord Perry is also on 13, including Complete Games and Shut Outs.
Randy Johnson's on 13, including WHIP, K/9, and K/BB.
Early Wynn's only on 5 lists, including Shut Outs. He also won a Cy Young and was an All Star 9 times.
Eddie Plank's on 9 lists, including Complete Games and Shut Outs.
Pete Alexander's on 8 lists, including W/9, Complete Games, and Shut Outs.
Lefty Grove's on only 5 lists, too. His include Win/Loss pct and Adjusted ERA.

Moyer doesn't compare to any of the other 9 on the Wins after 30 top ten. Everything he's there for is because he pitched a long time. He was a decent pitcher, but he wasn't "Hall of Fame" worthy. 1 All Star game. Highest CY vote was 4th and only top ten there three times.

Niekro went to 5 All Star games. He was the ERA winner once. He was up for the CY 5 times, finishing 2nd and 3rd. Plus one Gold Glove.
Pete Alexander had 5 ERA titles and three pitching "triple crowns."
Lefty Grove had 6 All Star games and 9 ERA titles, plus one MVP.
Randy Johnson had 5 Cy Young awards, 10 All Star game appearances, and 4 ERA titles.
Gaylord Perry only had 2 Cy Young awards and 5 All Star games. So sad.
Warren Spahn had 1 Cy Young, 3 ERA titles, and 17 All Star games.
Early Wynn had 1 Cy Young, 1 ERA title, and 9 All Star games.

I'm not going to bother with Cy Young.

That leaves Eddie Plank, who has no All Star games and no Cy Young awards. They had not been invented yet. He has no ERA titles, either. His FIP is about 2 runs lower than Moyer's. In their post-30 years, Moyer's WAR is 46 to Plank's 54.8.

Moyer's still not as good as Plank was after 30. But, no matter how much you want to make it about "after 30," it isn't. It's about their whole careers, Utley!

And in Moyer's first 6 years, he had a WAR of 4. Plank had a WAR of 33.4 in five seasons.

If you looked at the pre-30 careers for those other folks, you would see similar gaps between them and Moyer.

Moyer wouldn't make it even for post-30, but like I said, there is no Hall of Good but Aged, just a Hall of Fame, anyway.
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HamiltonIII

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Re: American League
« Reply #1345 on: January 24, 2019, 10:18:48 AM »

Being popular doesn't mean being good. Longevity matters, especially in pitching. With each post, you show you know booklearning, but not baseball.

Goodbye.
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kidcarter8

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Re: American League
« Reply #1346 on: January 24, 2019, 10:26:10 AM »

Stat of the day

In his final season as a fulltime OF (40%)of his overall games played were as an OF), Harold Baines threw out FIFTEEN baserunners.

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whiskeypriest

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Re: American League
« Reply #1347 on: January 24, 2019, 02:16:45 PM »

Stat of the day

In his final season as a fulltime OF (40%)of his overall games played were as an OF), Harold Baines threw out FIFTEEN baserunners.
Well, yeah. Everyone ran on his arm.
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josh

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Re: American League
« Reply #1348 on: January 24, 2019, 10:25:55 PM »

Being popular doesn't mean being good. Longevity matters, especially in pitching. With each post, you show you know booklearning, but not baseball.

Goodbye.

With each post, you show that you come to an opinion and nothing changes your mind.

He wasn't "Hall of After 39," either:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_40_pitch_career-after.shtml

And as ever, when you cannot win an argument on facts, you fall back on "understand the game."

Moyer wasn't a Hall of Famer by any measure except longevity and using that argument, Tim Wakefield belongs in the Hall of Fame, too. Much as I loved him as a player, he doesn't belong. I rooted for Moyer, in his later years, and Colon in his - and none of them belong.
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kiidcarter8

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Re: American League
« Reply #1349 on: January 25, 2019, 08:43:17 AM »

Pollack will not be a Met.  Dodgers get him for 4-50 plus 5 mil buyout of 10 mil 5th year.
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