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Russia will gain eastern Ukraine territories and hold them, as it has Crimea

5 (45.5%)

Russia will temporarily gain eastern Ukraine territories before being forced out of them

2 (18.2%)

Efforts to confront the Russian forces and get them out of Ukraine will lead to Putin's escalating and attacking NATO countries directly with missiles or other destructive measures

0 (0%)

The NATO/World response will be so mild that Putin will go ahead and take the rest of Ukraine

3 (27.3%)

Today Ukraine, tomorrow Moldova and who knows where else

1 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: March 01, 2022, 01:18:43 PM

[FlyingVProd]

A neighborhood or more goes each day in Ukraine equivalent to the Kremlin and its surrounds along with every far flinging installation and command post....

I have noticed.  I just meant civilians in Moscow are not accountable for Putin's autocratic horror of a government, and war.  If we back Moscow bombings with collateral deaths to take out Putin, we have become the enemy and will validate their atrocities.  And violate international law on extrajudicial killings, thus promoting open season on state leaders.  (just back from a trip, so been slow to reply here)

What do you think US citizens would do if our president (Biden or any past or future) just decided to take our military and run over Mexico or Canada?

Nothing?

When the USA went to war against Mexico, Thoreau asked for CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE.

Link about Thoreau and Civil Disobedience...

https://tinyurl.com/Thoreau-Civil0Disobedience

But of course the Americans had the rally cry of "Remember the Alamo" and the USA had no problem finding soldiers who were ready to fight.

Salute,

Tony V.

[facilitatorn]

Looking at the more recent example of Iraq, not enough not soon enough.

[kidcarter8]

A neighborhood or more goes each day in Ukraine equivalent to the Kremlin and its surrounds along with every far flinging installation and command post....

I have noticed.  I just meant civilians in Moscow are not accountable for Putin's autocratic horror of a government, and war.  If we back Moscow bombings with collateral deaths to take out Putin, we have become the enemy and will validate their atrocities.  And violate international law on extrajudicial killings, thus promoting open season on state leaders.  (just back from a trip, so been slow to reply here)

What do you think US citizens would do if our president (Biden or any past or future) just decided to take our military and run over Mexico or Canada?

Nothing?

When the USA went to war against Mexico, Thoreau asked for CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE.

Link about Thoreau and Civil Disobedience...

https://tinyurl.com/Thoreau-Civil0Disobedience

But of course the Americans had the rally cry of "Remember the Alamo" and the USA had no problem finding soldiers who were ready to fight.

Salute,

Tony V.

"Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine."

[FlyingVProd]

Okay this is just brain storming...

What if Ukraine offered to buy the contested land from Russia? They can pay Russia for the land in exchange for peace.

When we made our border with Canada, we set our terms, and we made them an offer they could not refuse, it was either they accept our border or it was war. Fortunately they chose peace, and we have our border with Canada. ( We had the War of 1812 in which we fought against Canada and England, but that is another story. )

With our border with Mexico, our border was made after war. Maybe Mexico should have just sold the land to the USA peacefully. What if Ukraine was willing to sell Crimea to Russia in exchange for peace?

We bought Alaska from Russia peacefully.

We need to explore ways that we can help peace to happen. We can look at the outcome of wars, and thus maybe we can see if we can have the ends happen peacefully without the means being war and death and destruction. Maybe we can achieve the ends and avoid the death and destruction.

There are a lot of things to think about.

And as the Russians get hungry from the sanctions, maybe we can buy peace with money. ( Although I do not approve of rewarding Putin for his actions, he is a war criminal and deserves to be held accountable. ) Maybe we can find people in Russia who we support and maybe we can make peace happen with money. Money has power when the people are poor and hungry.

Salute,

Tony V.

[Holly Martins]

A neighborhood or more goes each day in Ukraine equivalent to the Kremlin and its surrounds along with every far flinging installation and command post....

I have noticed.  I just meant civilians in Moscow are not accountable for Putin's autocratic horror of a government, and war.  If we back Moscow bombings with collateral deaths to take out Putin, we have become the enemy and will validate their atrocities.  And violate international law on extrajudicial killings, thus promoting open season on state leaders.  (just back from a trip, so been slow to reply here)

What do you think US citizens would do if our president (Biden or any past or future) just decided to take our military and run over Mexico or Canada?

Nothing?

Probably do more than Russians are able to do, given that we're a democracy with constitutional checks on executive power whereas Russia is an autocratic totalitarian state.  (Even if it weren't, I don't think being persuaded by propaganda to support Putin means you as a civilian deserve to be killed in a bombing)

[facilitatorn]

Tony, if Ukraine makes the Russian military equivalent to the Canadian military of 1812 then you might see Russia come to the table.

Going as far as they can in that direction is in fact the task at hand.

[FlyingVProd]

I have been working on Facebook trying to help to make peace and help the refugees, and I received a response that I will share with you...

-------

Torbjorn Vardaga
12 hours

Tony Verley I appreciate your effort to think outside the box!

However, there are a few factors here that I think complicates things more than in the examples you are referring to.

1. Russia already controls Crimea since 2014 and Ukraine has not attempted to take it back. Offering to sell it to Russia now would be like Russia offering to sell Alaska to the United States today.

2. Russia has told its own people that they are in Ukraine to protect the big Russian-speaking minory in Donbass and defeat the nazi government. Explaining to the Russian people that they ended up selling Donbass and its supposedly oppressed Russian minority to the nazis might be hard sell.

3. The Ukrainian capital of Kiev is much older than Moscow and the origin of the Russian empire can be traced to the Ukrainian area. For Putin, Kiev is like Jerusalem for Christians, and this is his crusade to take back what he believe rightfully belongs to Russia. Selling his Jerusalem to nazis is probably not an option for him.

---------------

There is a lot of hard work to do. We need to make the peace, and there are a lot of hard issues to deal with, and misinformation.

Salute,

Tony V.

[facilitatorn]

http://m.dailykos.com/stories/2022/5/2/2095412/-Ukraine-update-How-could-Russia-make-use-of-a-general-mobilization

[LarryBnDC]

Putin is following the early 20th century roadmap of megalomaniacs only way to stop him is to kill or less likely capture him. Fotunately the Russian military is not too powerful or efficient. But there is the Nuke card. Cannot be that difficult to target him with drones and or missiles? A lot less costly than what is happening now.

Dude...

[kidcarter8]

What happens then,Larry?  If Putin is taken out?

[facilitatorn]

The chaos Russia causes refocuses itself inside the Russian borders until a new maniac emerges atop the ensuing pile of corpses.

The Russian war effort collapses along with their active support for tories, republicans, and the other fascist scum parties they support around the world.

[LarryBnDC]

What happens then,Larry?  If Putin is taken out?

He is not bin Laden. Like or not he is the leader of a sovereign nation not in a declared war with the USA.

HOWEVER... He started the war in Ukraine and if we supply the weapons Ukraine uses to take out Putin than all is cool.

If Ukraine takes out the Kremlin and The Politburo who can say Boo?

[josh]

The chaos Russia causes refocuses itself inside the Russian borders until a new maniac emerges atop the ensuing pile of corpses.

The Russian war effort collapses along with their active support for tories, republicans, and the other fascist scum parties they support around the world.

Unless a strongman steps forward more swiftly and takes unfortunate actions...

[facilitatorn]

Like deploying rape squads, filtration camps, indiscriminate bombing of packed civilian centers?

Unfortunate is happening and spreading daily under the current regime.

[facilitatorn]

http://m.dailykos.com/stories/2022/5/3/2095646/-Ukraine-Invasion-Day-70

Pro Putin Russians are just as racist as republicans here are.