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Author Topic: Christmas - Separation of Church and State?  (Read 932 times)
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2007, 04:29:58 PM »

"It is far to easy to end up mudslinging at one another, rather than discussing the points."

Your point is well taken. But when I consider the general sneering and heckling tone of a certain someone's posts, I'm not going to feel too bad about kicking that SOB in the nuts every now and then.

Uh, dude..or dudette. Some of us go back a long way, like kid and I. We are frequently on the opposite side of the fence, and while it may appear to you that we dislike each other I can assure you that that is not the case. I for one, have a lot of respect for kid's stamina and intelligence, even though, like I said, we often disagree.

My point is that I think you got earn some chips before you let the few you have fall where they may.

And another thing.

If you want people to take your opinion seriously, maybe start by taking theirs the same way.

Being polite, or at least respectful isn't a sign of weakness.

Good luck.

Thanks.
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
MrUtley3
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« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2007, 04:35:00 PM »

MrUtley, I have a BIG problem with my tax dollars going to faith based charities, groups, whatever.  My two US senators are Republican.  My one daily newspaper is Republican.  Texas state government is Republican.  I have one ally.  The US congressman (in this case, congresswoman) is a Democrat.  She does what she can.  Besides writing letters, what else would people in my same circumstances do?

I have a big problem--even if it's for my candidate--of churches preaching politics from the pulpit.  And still enjoying tax excempt status. 

Yeah, that's a problem that I'm afraid you can't resolve. Martin Luther King, jr., did the same thing...

But that pulpit preaching is different. churches and churchmen have a right to be politically involved, IMO.

What I am talking about is the government, and I don't think for one second that the government has a poltical right to be religiously involved.  And the Founding Fathers---the liberals' best friends, when you stop and use your Consititution, knew this better than anyone.

I would say for you to stay politically active. Barry Goldwater never got a seat at the table, but his work helped Ronal Reagan get where he needed to go. Pendulums have a way of swinging back, too...Of course, a lot of people get cut up along the way, but I think you get my drift...(did I say, "drift"?)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 04:36:57 PM by MrUtley » Logged

"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
MrUtley3
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« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2007, 04:38:15 PM »

Problem with Christian organizations that do good works?

Nope.

The issue is that they don't follow federal guidelines for employment practices yet receive federal monies.  In effect, it gives them the right to discriminate with federal dollars

An excellent point, liq.
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
caclark
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« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2007, 04:58:08 PM »

MrUtley: "....I think you got earn some chips before you let the few you have fall where they may."

No one has any dues to pay in here. Nice try at a power play though. Just don't expect it to always be a one-sided pummeling with either you or someone else administering all the blows. If you throw a punch, you can expect to take a punch. I think that's fair.

Sincerely,

Dude or Dudette
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2007, 06:11:15 PM »

MrUtley: "....I think you got earn some chips before you let the few you have fall where they may."

No one has any dues to pay in here. Nice try at a power play though. Just don't expect it to always be a one-sided pummeling with either you or someone else administering all the blows. If you throw a punch, you can expect to take a punch. I think that's fair.

Sincerely,

Dude or Dudette



Oh, I see, you're like "Billy the Kid", riding into town and going to straighten out all us school marms.

Quick, hid the women and children, caclark's come to town! Run for your lives!!!

I tried to give you a fair warning, to save you some grief, but if want to act the tough guy, be my guest.

 

Seems like most people in here came to discuss the issue, but you came to sate your underdeveloped ego.

So be it.

Should be interesting watching what's going to be coming your way, here and elsewhere.

Of course, you could listen to reason, still, and save yourself the aggravation of being humiliated, frustrated, and pissed off. But maybe you enjoy that sort of thing.

Like I said, being respectful, especially when you disagree, isn't weakness.


Here's hoping you can develop real strength of character.



 


  Cool
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
josh
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« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2007, 06:21:53 PM »

Should be interesting watching what's going to be coming your way, here and elsewhere.

Well, no.

Interesting is the exact opposite of what I expect it will be.

That was sort of my point to start with.
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caclark
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« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2007, 06:25:14 PM »

MrUtley,

What in hell is producing these shrill outbursts? If my posts irritate you that much, don’t read them.
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MrUtley3
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« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2007, 07:45:11 PM »

MrUtley,

What in hell is producing these shrill outbursts? If my posts irritate you that much, don’t read them.

NOthing shrill here. Just leting you know what's what...and your posts have yet to be worth reading, much...
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
MrUtley3
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« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2007, 11:23:05 AM »

I think it would be instructive for everyone to read Harold Meyerson"s column from the Washington Post, on how the Christian GOP, ain't so Christian:

Hard-liners for Jesus

By Harold Meyerson
Wednesday, December 19, 2007; Page A19

As Christians across the world prepare to celebrate the birth of Jesus, it's a fitting moment to contemplate the mountain of moral, and mortal, hypocrisy that is our Christianized Republican Party.

There's nothing new, of course, about the Christianization of the GOP. Seven years ago, when debating Al Gore, then-candidate George W. Bush was asked to identify his favorite philosopher and answered "Jesus." This year, however, the Christianization of the party reached new heights with Mitt Romney's declaration that he believed in Jesus as his savior, in an effort to stanch the flow of "values voters" to Mike Huckabee.
 

 
My concern isn't the rift that has opened between Republican political practice and the vision of the nation's Founders, who made very clear in the Constitution that there would be no religious test for officeholders in their enlightened new republic. Rather, it's the gap between the teachings of the Gospels and the preachings of the Gospel's Own Party that has widened past the point of absurdity, even as the ostensible Christianization of the party proceeds apace.

The policies of the president, for instance, can be defended in greater or (more frequently) lesser degree within a framework of worldly standards. But if Bush can conform his advocacy of preemptive war with Jesus's Sermon on the Mount admonition to turn the other cheek, he's a more creative theologian than we have given him credit for. Likewise his support of torture, which he highlighted again this month when he threatened to veto House-passed legislation that would explicitly ban waterboarding.

It's not just Bush whose catechism is a merry mix of torture and piety. Virtually the entire Republican House delegation opposed the ban on waterboarding. Among the Republican presidential candidates, only Huckabee and the not-very-religious John McCain have come out against torture, while only libertarian Ron Paul has questioned the doctrine of preemptive war.


You may have to register to read the entire article, but it's free:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/18/AR2007121801634.html?nav=hcmodule
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"That guy over there played with Ty Cobb," said Phillies bench coach Jimy Williams, pointing to Chase Utley. "He's been here before."  quoted in the Boston Globe
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« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2008, 01:25:54 PM »

First blowing up buildings and secretaries for houris and now honor killings, almost like Christmas but with a nasty midieval warlord edge. In researching it seems to be a very popular celebration around the globe. Santa knows if you are naughty or nice and does or does not stuff your stocking. Among the primitives if you are naughty he shoots your brains out.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/01/religion_of_pea_24.html

... it's time for another edition of "GUESS THE RELIGION."

Hmmm . . . A taxicab driver named Yaser Abdel Said murders both of his teenage daughters on Tuesday, probably because they had too much fun (perhaps with the dreaded non-Muslim infidels) on New Year's Eve the night before.

(Last I checked still has not been apprehended, probably being protected by a local Imam in Texastan)


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madupont
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« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2008, 03:27:06 PM »


Religion in American Politics
A Short History
Frank Lambert

The delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention blocked the establishment of Christianity as a national religion. But they could not keep religion out of American politics. From the election of 1800, when Federalist clergymen charged that deist Thomas Jefferson was unfit to lead a "Christian nation," to today, when some Democrats want to embrace the so-called Religious Left in order to compete with the Republicans and the Religious Right, religion has always been part of American politics. In Religion in American Politics, Frank Lambert tells the fascinating story of the uneasy relations between religion and politics from the founding to the twenty-first century.

"Of the writing of books about the rise and rumored fall of the religious right there is no end. But most of these tend toward the genre of the rant, which is why Lambert's new book is important. It gives a history of the intertwining of evangelical faith and political engagement in America that displays no obvious agenda other than to illuminate.... The whole book will be useful as a handy, clear and fair treatment of this most contentious subject."--Publishers Weekly

Cloth  | $24.95 / £14.95 | ISBN: 978-0-691-12833-7

press.princeton.edu

Lambert examines how antebellum Protestant unity was challenged by sectionalism as both North and South invoked religious justification; how Andrew Carnegie's "Gospel of Wealth" competed with the anticapitalist "Social Gospel" during postwar industrialization; how the civil rights movement was perhaps the most effective religious intervention in politics in American history; and how the alliance between the Republican Party and the Religious Right has, in many ways, realized the founders' fears of religious-political electoral coalitions. In these and other cases, Lambert shows that religion became sectarian and partisan whenever it entered the political fray, and that religious agendas have always mixed with nonreligious ones.

Religion in American Politics brings rare historical perspective and insight to a subject that was just as important--and controversial--in 1776 as it is today.

Frank Lambert's books include The Barbary Wars (Hill & Wang), a New York Times Editors' Choice; The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America; Inventing the "Great Awakening"; and "Pedlar in Divinity": George Whitefield and the Transatlantic Revivals, 1737-1770 (all Princeton). He is professor of history at Purdue University
Table of Contents:

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS ix
INTRODUCTION 1
CHAPTER ONE: Providential and Secular America: Founding the Republic 14
CHAPTER TWO: Elusive Protestant Unity: Sunday Mails, Catholic Immigration, and Sectional Division 41
CHAPTER THREE: The "Gospel of Wealth" and the "Social Gospel": Industrialization and the Rise of Corporate America 74
CHAPTER FOUR: Faith and Science: The Modernist-Fundamentalist Controversy 104
CHAPTER FIVE: Religious and Political Liberalism: The Rise of Big Government from the New Deal to the Cold War 130
CHAPTER SIX: Civil Rights as a Religious Movement: Politics in the Streets 160
CHAPTER SEVEN: The Rise of the "Religious Right": The Reagan Revolution and the "Moral Majority" 184
CHAPTER EIGHT: Reemergence of the "Religious Left"? America's Culture War in the Early Twenty-first Century 218
NOTES 251
INDEX 271


Other Princeton books by Frank Lambert:

The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America.
Inventing the "Great Awakening".
"Pedlar in Divinity": George Whitefield and the Transatlantic Revivals, 1737-1770.
Subject Areas:


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