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Poll

What do you expect on Wednesday?

Reports of protests are overblown. A few incidents around the country, but nothing major.
- 5 (45.5%)
A few major incidents in capitals, but nothing much in DC.
- 5 (45.5%)
A major incident in DC, but nothing much around the country.
- 0 (0%)
More than 10 capitals have major upheavals, but nothing much in DC.
- 0 (0%)
A major incident in DC plus more than 10 capitals with significant upheavals.
- 1 (9.1%)
More than half the capitals around the country have problems with protesters, but DC is quiet.
- 0 (0%)
DC has major problems, while more than half the capitals around the country also have considerable trouble with protesters.
- 0 (0%)
Huge disruption to the day.
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2021, 10:49:21 PM


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Author Topic: Trump Administration  (Read 2038988 times)

bankshot1

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38010 on: June 12, 2020, 09:25:43 AM »

Trump's Grotesque Tulsa Trip:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/opinion/trump-rally-tulsa.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Opinion

MegaDeath 2020 Tour

Trump's getting the proud boys back together

but fans got to sign liability waivers first

The album "SuperSpreader is OK with me" will be available in the lobby


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facilitatorn

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38011 on: June 12, 2020, 09:27:40 AM »


I don’t think Captain Dorn would have suffered the four horsemen of George Floyd’s apocalypse under his command. He seems like a really good guy. Police culture being what it is though, he might not have had a choice but to quit or put up with bad cops like that.

I didn't infer that at all. So I'm not sure where you're getting that. Unless it is a bait and switch tactic.

It was just an opinion. I was catching up, following your post, reading articles out of respect that his life And story seems genuinely important to at least one member of the community in the context of all that’s going on, and you sorta seem like a reasonable guy so I could learn something. I did the search to probe the saturation of the story, so I could see whether or not you had a point. In the reading what struck me was imagining coming up in Missouri, joining the force in the thick Nixony part of the twentieth century as a black guy and rising and rising through the department to make chief and to still be as connected and loved as he still is in his community at the end, hold that love all those years through everything.

Then in retirement, I don’t know much about it, but to see the steady push from Travon, to Michael, through so many to Breanna, to George and all the backlash, some directly to the units he led. He probably heard and thought more about Ferguson then almost anyone, and now this was all going down. What was on his mind as he went to see what was happening at the pawn shop?

His whole life was stepping between danger and the endangered, right to the end, I don’t see any of that or even the outcome being terribly unsettling to him. I believe his life ended in a way that he no way desired but entirely understood and likely came at least close to terms with a long time ago.

The evolution of policing and criminalization over the last 30 years and even more so over the last 3, him witnessing all of it in light of his unimaginable work, and feeling in the face of that evidence he’d accomplished what? That seems harder on the heart and more disquieting to the soul.

Quote
The CBS station you referenced is a local station. But the CBS National news was mute. As were the rest.

The Daily Beast is not a major mainstream outlet. In fact I've never heard of it. Doesn't make is invalid. But it is about as well known as its Conservative counterpart The Daily Caller is known to most liberals. But I suspect you know that already.

Once again none of the major players, CNN, MSNBC, ABC National, CBS National, NBC National, or a Major online AOL, mentioned it at all.


The non-fox tv affiliated stuff was local, regional, While the print stuff tended to be both of those things and fringy, no doubt.

I’d note that one or two things happened, or continued to unfold in the interim. Which may be an excuse or none at all.

As far as the big few, Fox, Foxnews, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC, I don’t find the useful as more than occasional sources of news. They are interesting for their takes, what they present and omit, as well as how they present what they do bring up. I don’t give the stormer or the caller or Breitbart clicks, but I get their echoes and that’s enough. The closest I come to that kind of crazy is the occasional look at zero hedge.

I used to graveyard manage a coffeehouse right next to a Scientology recruitment center. A lot of the people on Fox remind me of the people the Scientologists put on the night shift, which was their prime time. This makes me skeptical of guys like Baier and Wallace who otherwise I’d give a less jaundiced ear. It has gotten both better and worse since Roger went on to his reward. 

Quote

How did I find out about the funeral? From FOX news which one would of course expect to see it as it fits their agenda. And once again I'm not picking sides in this. I'm trying to make the point of each side has their own agenda and dogma to attend to.

Given that point, which could still use a little fleshing out, where do you feel the context is for the life and death of Captain Dorn in the context of all that is transpiring? Does it lead us anywhere? If so where?

If we chew this over with the diligence it deserves, which I’m happy to do, like the singing of Allison’s Restaurant, it may get picked up and develop a life of its own.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 09:33:35 AM by facilitatorn »
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38012 on: June 12, 2020, 09:45:26 AM »


I'm not going to find tit for tat examples of the left media lying and knowing they were lying. They're out there but I'm not here to delineate some sort of line that proves one side is "worse" than the other. I'm here to say they are both biased and yes both lie. A definite and willful distortion of the truth is lying and both sides do it. I'm not here to rah rah rah for either of them. I find both sides of this media war "deplorables".

Do you think this sort of political discussion - which side lies more - can ever find any real objective arbiter that both sides would accept as such?   For sure,  no one wants to come here and do heavy lifting on statistics,  fact checks,  independent press audits,  ad infinitum.   Most people have some sort of gut feel they go with,  or they point to the judgment call of their favored pundit or pundits.   Or they just listen to NPR and try to discern some patterns in the info flood.   

I live in a state full of conservatives  (Thune is one of my senators),  so I know some who are just decent honest people whose guiding principle is that federal level governance doesn't work well,  and less is generally more.   They find news feeds that feed that ideology,  and ignore those that don't.   I would ask them, and you:  do you think that approach will take you into a bubble (or an information silo,  as some call it)?   Does it make sense to put down the National Review on occasion,  and pick up The Guardian,  or Mother Jones?   Or should we all just read straight news,  like AP?

I'm a regular here,  so I am glad to see people coming over from sports threads,  and maybe toss in some perspectives that fall between Redstateward and Josh,  on the conservative end.   It could be fun to examine some underlying assumptions we have about government, capitalism,  freedom,  and the dignity of individuals.

I do watch both news. And I try to filter out what is right and what may be questionable as anyone should be doing. Both sides are strongly biased IMO. FOX embellishes to the max. CNN and the other national media outlets embellish as well. But their primary forte is simply not reporting on some news stories at all. Thus they can't be accused of embellishing if they simply don't report it at all. It's all tactics. 

My hope has been that someone or "someones" would come along an attempt some actual healing in this country. But nobody in the country seems very interested in that. Both sides seem so entrenched that any hope of dialog is fantasy at this juncture. We've seem to have become a nation of nonwaivering uncomprovising hate. On both sides.

I was encouraged by the taping of the Chicago Aldermen and their lamentations of the destructions in their precincts.

Before you heal a wound you have to stop the bleeding.

You make a valid point Larry. And so the hateful infighting needs to stop. Which was my point.

Captain David Dorn, who was murdered by a Black protester, was buried yesterday. Not one mention about this on Liberal AOL media(or yany of the so-called mainstream media outlets) because it does not fit their obvious agenda. Which attests to my observation of the left's tactics of simply acting like some things just haven't happened. Someone asked me for examples of the left media lying. This is one. To not report the other side of the canvas is indeed a form of lying.

And hand waiving moderates at this point are as invisible to both sides as that story was to AOL, and the rest. Our country is indeed bleeding and nobody seems to want to step back and talk. Or listen.

Bruh...

There have been three arrests in the murder of Captain Dorn.

He wasn’t shot by Black protestors he was killed by FUCKING CROOKS who were being crooks.

Step back and talk?

How many times have we tried to talk?

NFL players tried to do this peacefully and the President said “get that sonuvabitch of the field! He’s fired!”

Ya didn’t want to talk when the opportunity was there.

Now, just shut up and listen.

Read the room, Grandpa.

No room for disagreement or more nuanced views allowed here, right, Larry?
You are becoming what you profess to loathe. You want inclusion but only thru exclusion.

That is hardly the way to gain allies.
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The artist's job is not to succumb to despair but to find an antidote for the emptiness of existence.

oilcan

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38013 on: June 12, 2020, 09:47:12 AM »

You guys,  Cargo in particular, may find this interesting.

Potemkin journalism...

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/06/conspiracy-mainstream-media-trump-farage-journalism/612628/

When journalism is hijacked by activists, a phrase like that is often invoked. To paraphrase Ralph Waldo Emerson: The louder someone talks about how “the mainstream media won’t cover this,” the faster you need to count your spoons. Nothing is so flimsy, so overspun, or so poorly sourced that it cannot be made to look like a scandal by conjuring the specter of a vast media conspiracy that’s repressing it. A story’s weakness becomes a strength: Other outlets’ refusal to follow up on it can be depicted as sinister. Viewers are seduced by the promise of access to hidden knowledge, which will ensure that they alone know what’s really going on....   

The example used in the article is British,  but it applies to this chat about "ignored" stories.


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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38014 on: June 12, 2020, 09:50:53 AM »

Meanwhile...as Rome burns.

What say you Wall Street exec: “Shifting 2020 election trends may threaten the 2017 corporate tax cuts and deregulatory environment, (2) While the Fed pledged to continue the current easing the Fed did not increase the pace of easing, which is an incremental tightening, and (3) a double-dip recession is possible if media and government continue to portray the SARS-Cov2 virus as a modern-day plague in a spectacle that we believe has become politicized,” he says.
---Barry Bannister, head of institutional equity strategy at Stifel, who lowered his price target for the S&P 500 to 3100 in December, from 3250 in August.

Source: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/heres-why-one-strategist-has-slashed-his-sp-500-target-and-it-isnt-just-because-of-the-fed-and-covid-19-2020-06-12
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The artist's job is not to succumb to despair but to find an antidote for the emptiness of existence.

Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38015 on: June 12, 2020, 09:57:07 AM »

Also from NewsCorp's website MarketWatch:
...according to an internal memo obtained by BuzzFeed News, Starbucks SBUX, 3.78% prohibited its workers from wearing accessories or clothing mentioning BLM, citing its dress-code policy that targets anything to do with politics or religion.

Despite backlash from employees, a spokesperson for Starbucks told BuzzFeed the rule will stay in place because it’s necessary “to create a safe and welcoming” environment.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boycott-starbucks-coffee-giant-slammed-for-banning-black-lives-matter-gear-2020-06-11

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The artist's job is not to succumb to despair but to find an antidote for the emptiness of existence.

barton

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38016 on: June 12, 2020, 10:07:28 AM »

You guys,  Cargo in particular, may find this interesting.

Potemkin journalism...

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/06/conspiracy-mainstream-media-trump-farage-journalism/612628/

When journalism is hijacked by activists, a phrase like that is often invoked. To paraphrase Ralph Waldo Emerson: The louder someone talks about how “the mainstream media won’t cover this,” the faster you need to count your spoons. Nothing is so flimsy, so overspun, or so poorly sourced that it cannot be made to look like a scandal by conjuring the specter of a vast media conspiracy that’s repressing it. A story’s weakness becomes a strength: Other outlets’ refusal to follow up on it can be depicted as sinister. Viewers are seduced by the promise of access to hidden knowledge, which will ensure that they alone know what’s really going on....   

The example used in the article is British,  but it applies to this chat about "ignored" stories.

I was fortunate enough to recently get a subscription.   The Atlantic's Shadowland project on conspiracy thinking  is outstanding.  I had recently read that article (which also looks at how Trump has tweaked the whole media conspiracy thing,  and examples the Joe Scarborough murder "theory" among others) .   The tool of the tinfoil set I most often notice is the stripping of context away until you've achieved a sinister-looking factoid.   This seems a popular method here at Elba,  too.   
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NeedsAdjustments

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38017 on: June 12, 2020, 10:09:41 AM »

No room for disagreement or more nuanced views allowed here, right, Larry?
You are becoming what you profess to loathe. You want inclusion but only thru exclusion.

That is hardly the way to gain allies.

Cop with his knee on the neck of a black man:

Quite the wiggly worm, aren't you?  Geez, why are you so emotional?  Calm down.  I just can't talk to you like this.  I'm on your side, really.  But if you keep flailing around like this, with so much anger and hate, well...thats no way to gain allies.  Having trouble breathing?  Then talk to me like a civilized person and then maybe I'll take my knee off your neck.  Because I must say, thus far your tone is truly not acceptable...
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CaptainCargo

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38018 on: June 12, 2020, 10:28:03 AM »


I'm not going to find tit for tat examples of the left media lying and knowing they were lying. They're out there but I'm not here to delineate some sort of line that proves one side is "worse" than the other. I'm here to say they are both biased and yes both lie. A definite and willful distortion of the truth is lying and both sides do it. I'm not here to rah rah rah for either of them. I find both sides of this media war "deplorables".

Do you think this sort of political discussion - which side lies more - can ever find any real objective arbiter that both sides would accept as such?   For sure,  no one wants to come here and do heavy lifting on statistics,  fact checks,  independent press audits,  ad infinitum.   Most people have some sort of gut feel they go with,  or they point to the judgment call of their favored pundit or pundits.   Or they just listen to NPR and try to discern some patterns in the info flood.   

I live in a state full of conservatives  (Thune is one of my senators),  so I know some who are just decent honest people whose guiding principle is that federal level governance doesn't work well,  and less is generally more.   They find news feeds that feed that ideology,  and ignore those that don't.   I would ask them, and you:  do you think that approach will take you into a bubble (or an information silo,  as some call it)?   Does it make sense to put down the National Review on occasion,  and pick up The Guardian,  or Mother Jones?   Or should we all just read straight news,  like AP?

I'm a regular here,  so I am glad to see people coming over from sports threads,  and maybe toss in some perspectives that fall between Redstateward and Josh,  on the conservative end.   It could be fun to examine some underlying assumptions we have about government, capitalism,  freedom,  and the dignity of individuals.

I do watch both news. And I try to filter out what is right and what may be questionable as anyone should be doing. Both sides are strongly biased IMO. FOX embellishes to the max. CNN and the other national media outlets embellish as well. But their primary forte is simply not reporting on some news stories at all. Thus they can't be accused of embellishing if they simply don't report it at all. It's all tactics. 

My hope has been that someone or "someones" would come along an attempt some actual healing in this country. But nobody in the country seems very interested in that. Both sides seem so entrenched that any hope of dialog is fantasy at this juncture. We've seem to have become a nation of nonwaivering uncomprovising hate. On both sides.

I was encouraged by the taping of the Chicago Aldermen and their lamentations of the destructions in their precincts.

Before you heal a wound you have to stop the bleeding.

You make a valid point Larry. And so the hateful infighting needs to stop. Which was my point.

Captain David Dorn, who was murdered by a Black protester, was buried yesterday. Not one mention about this on Liberal AOL media(or yany of the so-called mainstream media outlets) because it does not fit their obvious agenda. Which attests to my observation of the left's tactics of simply acting like some things just haven't happened. Someone asked me for examples of the left media lying. This is one. To not report the other side of the canvas is indeed a form of lying.

And hand waiving moderates at this point are as invisible to both sides as that story was to AOL, and the rest. Our country is indeed bleeding and nobody seems to want to step back and talk. Or listen.

Bruh...

There have been three arrests in the murder of Captain Dorn.

He wasn’t shot by Black protestors he was killed by FUCKING CROOKS who were being crooks.

Step back and talk?

How many times have we tried to talk?

NFL players tried to do this peacefully and the President said “get that sonuvabitch of the field! He’s fired!”

Ya didn’t want to talk when the opportunity was there.

Now, just shut up and listen.

Read the room, Grandpa.

Dawg, There have been multiple arrests in the George murder. Is this somehow different? Did the protestors even give the Judicial system time to arrest these dirty cops? No the reaction was violence and intimidation. And on both sides for that matter.

The "Crooks" were protestors in the protest crowd AND started off as "protestors". If we expect the police and justice system to start policing their own then we should expect the protestors to do the same. Was there a significant number of "protestors" trying to stop the looting? I didn't see any.

But once more that's not the point I'm trying to make. But as usual it's "Shut up" and listen.

Shut up isn't going to get anyone anywhere. I've done that enough in my own life to finally realize that that tactic just doesn't work. You want to solve something to get together and solve it. And clearly nobody is interested in that. Not in this forum or the world outside this forum.

I'll go back to the peripherals and let the haymakers fly.

One tin soldier rode away. 

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What do farmers and the media have in common?
They both spend a lot of time spreading shit.

barton

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38019 on: June 12, 2020, 10:31:36 AM »

I saw something like ten pages here with endless tone policing.   That whole passive-aggressive approach of "I'm here to bestow upon you my sage insights into proper discourse" is so easy to fall into... and usually backfires bigly. 
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bodiddley

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38020 on: June 12, 2020, 11:03:23 AM »

Dawg, There have been multiple arrests in the George murder. Is this somehow different? Did the protestors even give the Judicial system time to arrest these dirty cops? No the reaction was violence and intimidation. And on both sides for that matter.

the only reason that there were charges against the officers was that there was a rather conclusive video.  Without the citizen videos, the outline of the police cover-up was in place.  The police report rather neutrally says that a medical emergency occurred.  Emphasizes no weapons were used.  The police autopsy report sounds mostly exculpatory, mentioning trace amounts of drugs, notes some vascular issues, found no asphyxiation or strangulation occurred.  And no doubt the cops would have placed a rather short estimate on the length of time of their subdual tactics, if they admitted them at all.

And we'd probably never see or hear about the police bodycams or dashboard cams.  Just another black man professionally stomped into the grave, and determined to be an accident.  Only the citizen videos allowed for some justice for George Floyd's death.

Quote
The "Crooks" were protestors in the protest crowd AND started off as "protestors". If we expect the police and justice system to start policing their own then we should expect the protestors to do the same. Was there a significant number of "protestors" trying to stop the looting? I didn't see any.

1) how do you know they were protesters?

2) an ad hoc protest cannot be held to the same standard of self-policing that professional, trained and well-paid actual police are.  That's ludicrous.
Besides it's not exactly safe trying to stop people from committing crimes, which is why we entrust that to well-armed and trained police.

3) there were videos of protesters stopping others from graffiti and violence and looting.  The two I recall were the one BLM woman crying because two whites girls were spray painting BLM and such slogans on buildings, and the black woman knew it would make the protesters and BLM look bad.  Another where a guy trying to stop looters got smacked down hard.  And the other was a ring of black guys protecting a frightened white riot geared cop who got separated from his phalanx.

Also there were a number of reports of organized criminal gangs using the riots as cover to loot in organized fashion.  Looters and protesters aren't the same.  Though you conflate them easily enough.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 11:05:41 AM by bodiddley »
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NeedsAdjustments

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38021 on: June 12, 2020, 11:14:43 AM »

Dawg, There have been multiple arrests in the George murder. Is this somehow different? Did the protestors even give the Judicial system time to arrest these dirty cops? No the reaction was violence and intimidation. And on both sides for that matter.

the only reason that there were charges against the officers was that there was a rather conclusive video.  Without the citizen videos, the outline of the police cover-up was in place.  The police report rather neutrally says that a medical emergency occurred.  Emphasizes no weapons were used.  The police autopsy report sounds mostly exculpatory, mentioning trace amounts of drugs, notes some vascular issues, found no asphyxiation or strangulation occurred.  And no doubt the cops would have placed a rather short estimate on the length of time of their subdual tactics, if they admitted them at all.

And we'd probably never see or hear about the police bodycams or dashboard cams.  Just another black man professionally stomped into the grave, and determined to be an accident.  Only the citizen videos allowed for some justice for George Floyd's death.

Quote
The "Crooks" were protestors in the protest crowd AND started off as "protestors". If we expect the police and justice system to start policing their own then we should expect the protestors to do the same. Was there a significant number of "protestors" trying to stop the looting? I didn't see any.

1) how do you know they were protesters?

2) an ad hoc protest cannot be held to the same standard of self-policing that professional, trained and well-paid actual police are.  That's ludicrous.
Besides it's not exactly safe trying to stop people from committing crimes, which is why we entrust that to well-armed and trained police.

3) there were videos of protesters stopping others from graffiti and violence and looting.  The two I recall were the one BLM woman crying because two whites girls were spray painting BLM and such slogans on buildings, and the black woman knew it would make the protesters and BLM look bad.  Another where a guy trying to stop looters got smacked down hard.  And the other was a ring of black guys protecting a frightened white riot geared cop who got separated from his phalanx.

Also there were a number of reports of organized criminal gangs using the riots as cover to loot in organized fashion.  Looters and protesters aren't the same.  Though you conflate them easily enough.

I'd only add, that while things got out of control in the early days, the protests the last week were largely peaceful.  A number of factors went into that, but yes, I'd say protesters self-policing is probably a big one.

Drawing an equivalence between Floyd and Dorn is a big red flag that CaptainCargo is not as neutral as he claims.  But even by his own standard the BLM protests saw a marked improvement in the reduction of violence.  The same can not be said for law enforcement.
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"When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done."  -  The impeached "president" on Feb 27, 2020

NeedsAdjustments

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38022 on: June 12, 2020, 11:17:19 AM »

there were videos of protesters stopping others from graffiti and violence and looting.

Saw those too.  And saw it commented on multiple times in the MSM.  Somehow CaptainCargo missed those as he scanned multiple media outlets, sifting the biased wheat from the chaff. 
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"When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done."  -  The impeached "president" on Feb 27, 2020

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38023 on: June 12, 2020, 11:19:16 AM »

The "Crooks" were protestors in the protest crowd AND started off as "protestors".

CaptainCargo really hates it when the MSM makes up stuff without evidence or attribution.

He really does.
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"When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done."  -  The impeached "president" on Feb 27, 2020

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #38024 on: June 12, 2020, 12:11:01 PM »

The "Crooks" were protestors in the protest crowd AND started off as "protestors".

CaptainCargo really hates it when the MSM makes up stuff without evidence or attribution.

He really does.

It should be said that the notion that they were "protesters" is a red herring.  As I said, you don't protest at 2 AM.  The idea of a protest or demonstration is that people see you.  And we can also agree that breaking into a pawn shop is not a legitimate form of protest.

If the perpetrators (who had felonies on their records, and thus could be better described as "crooks") happened to march in the protests at some point that day, that doesn't change any of the above.  And obviously holding BLM accountable for their actions would be unfair. 

People are killed in robberies in this country probably daily.  Its a sad thing that, indecently, people who want fewer guns on our streets would like to do something about.  And yes, gun violence is something you will can find protests for, and join them if you are called.

That doesn't make Dorn and Floyd equivalent issues.  And those who say they are betray their bias against the BLM cause.
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"When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done."  -  The impeached "president" on Feb 27, 2020
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