Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Reports of protests are overblown. A few incidents around the country, but nothing major.

5 (45.5%)

A few major incidents in capitals, but nothing much in DC.

5 (45.5%)

A major incident in DC, but nothing much around the country.

0 (0%)

More than 10 capitals have major upheavals, but nothing much in DC.

0 (0%)

A major incident in DC plus more than 10 capitals with significant upheavals.

1 (9.1%)

More than half the capitals around the country have problems with protesters, but DC is quiet.

0 (0%)

DC has major problems, while more than half the capitals around the country also have considerable trouble with protesters.

0 (0%)

Huge disruption to the day.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2021, 10:49:21 PM

[bodiddley]

White people who never owned slaves should not have to pay reparation to people who never were slaves.

I always think the focus on slavery reparations is too problematic.  It allows most Whites to claim their ancestors weren't even here then.  It happened a long time ago, etc.

I'd focus reparations based on 150 years of discrimination, especially the 100 years when the system made it legal to separate and discriminate.  Reparations for Apartheid America.  Pluses: this happened recently and the discrimination is still ongoing.  All Whites have benefited from not having to compete with 13% of the population.  Most police and fire departments already have thoroughly documented their past racists hiring practices.   (It was the only was they could deploy affirmative action, as the law of the land is equal protection, but race can be used as a legal remedy to right past wrongs).

You can reference slavery, but I'd be talking reparations primarily for the 100 years of segregation when Blacks couldn't earn a decent living and were illegally denied good jobs and decent housing, and were humiliated as inferior and threatened with violence to keep a race based system of hate and discrimination in place.  Plus the last 50 years when racism still persisted, a main strategy was to incarcerate large numbers of black males, and things got better but were never equal.  Slavery and the failed promises to help the newly freed can be a supporting argument, but I don't think is the strongest foundation.  Too distant and therefore excuse prone.  I'd focus on getting reparations and payback for much more recent discrimination.

[bodiddley]

Of course US immigration policies were also enormously racist, so few Africans were admitted to the US for over a century after the civil war, and not large numbers the past 50 years, and Chinese were excluded for decades int he early 20th C, while hordes of Whites were admitted.  And since the system was racist and many Euro-immigrants were poor, they got the hard work low pay jobs Black Americans would have otherwise gotten.  And there would be more Blacks in America today if African immigration had been allowed in the 20th C.

[Echo4]

White people who never owned slaves should not have to pay reparation to people who never were slaves.

I always think the focus on slavery reparations is too problematic.  It allows most Whites to claim their ancestors weren't even here then.  It happened a long time ago, etc.

You could focus on the last 20 years and it wouldn't matter, I'm pretty sure.

You could point out specific ways that the individuals in question benefited and it would not matter.

These are the same people who insist that there is no such thing as white privilege and cannot see past the ends of their noses.

[facilitatorn]

Of course US immigration policies were also enormously racist, so few Africans were admitted to the US for over a century after the civil war, and not large numbers the past 50 years, and Chinese were excluded for decades int he early 20th C, while hordes of Whites were admitted.  And since the system was racist and many Euro-immigrants were poor, they got the hard work low pay jobs Black Americans would have otherwise gotten.  And there would be more Blacks in America today if African immigration had been allowed in the 20th C.

That explains why we’re a cracker farm, nearly 1/3 full of idiots like Red.

[facilitatorn]

http://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jgxjyp/exclusive-new-videos-from-breonna-taylors-sister-show-police-moments-after-shooting

Keep marching.

[bodiddley]

I just think slavery seems very remote to most Americans, so much so that they can hardly conceive it existed.  And then they dodge that their ancestors came over later, or they were all Northern folk or whatever.  I think if you want to talk about reparations or some serious wealth transfer, you need to make it more immediate and closer tied to today.

I get your point that some will never see what they don't want to see.  But I think switching from slavery to segregation/racism reparations. you can win over a significant chunk of more moderate white folks who would be resistant to any compensation for slavery.

[bodiddley]

So there's a shortage of PPE, ICU rooms, and testing in a host of southern states.
You'd think supply of gloves and masks would have been solved 6 months into the crisis.

Otherwise I was reading Heritage Foundation Richard Epstein's June 6 article about Red & Blue states.  I'm interested because this jackass was my Torts professor, where he made it clear he values economic concerns over rights and lives.  His theory of utility -- how he believes courts should decide all tort cases -- unsurprisingly favors wealth and the rich over others.

Anyway, he pointed out that a number of Blue states enacted lockdowns and yet had major outbreaks, and then goes so far as to say that the lockdowns harmed the people and the economy.  Doesn't realize the lockdowns were a belated response to the virus, and if the lockdowns occurred earlier, the health and economy would have been much less impacted.

Anyway, he goes on to gloat that Red states that mostly stayed open had few cases, so a better health and economic outcome.  Oops.  What a difference a month makes.  The real issue is that once the virus hit in NY and NJ they took relatively strong action.  In TX, AZ, FLA they continue to be fairly lax despite a raging epidemic.  With lockdowns and mask requirements, these states could have been nearly virus free and escaped suffering and economic harm. 

I find it unbelievable how folks/states/countries always seem to think that an outbreak somewhere else doesn't affect them and isn't something to prepare against.  Anyway, you'd think Epstein might want to stop being wrong about the virus, but you'd be wrong.  He's not the shut up or back down type.  He'll just double down in Trumpian fashion.

[luee]

Trump attacks his own CDC scientists over how to reopen schools safely

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/07/09/trump-attacks-cdc-scientists-over-covid-19-school-reopening-guidelines/5405407002/

So insane, disregarding children's lives for his own vanity.

[NeedsAdjustments]

So insane, disregarding children's lives and teachers lives for his own vanity reelection prospects.

Fixed it for you.

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1281320469921136641

Which is the same reason he is opposed to testing, telling Hannity last night that COVID testing "is the best thing that ever happened for the opposition party" (or something like that.)

Who ever would have guessed that Trump would sacrifice American lives to improve his own political prospects?  Truly, no one, right?

[NeedsAdjustments]

From June 23rd to July 5th, twelve days, the 7 day running average on daily deaths dropped from 628 to 516.

In four days, it is back up to 625.

Hospitalizations and deaths spiking in Texas:

https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2020/texas-coronavirus-cases-map/?_ga=2.103232834.391460595.1594376265-1076693569.1593187580

[NeedsAdjustments]

From June 23rd to July 5th, twelve days, the 7 day running average on daily deaths dropped from 628 to 516.

In four days, it is back up to 625.

Hospitalizations and deaths spiking in Texas:

https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2020/texas-coronavirus-cases-map/?_ga=2.103232834.391460595.1594376265-1076693569.1593187580

Look at the charts that accompany this.  While increase in cases had been rising slightly for months, it really starts to kick up in the middle of June.  The first real spike in deaths is recorded on July 7th.

3 Weeks.

[NeedsAdjustments]

Florida's daily death rate:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/state-timeline/new-deaths/florida/0

The news reports that they are experiencing a "record number of deaths" at 120 doesn't capture it.  It hadn't even been close before.  Seven day moving average was 56, after the State started seeing slightly increasing numbers of deaths in mid-June.

3 Weeks.

[NeedsAdjustments]

California:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/state-timeline/new-deaths/california/0

Increase in rate of infections started on June 20.  First spike in daily recorded deaths on July 7th.

2.5 Weeks.

Other states that are seeing spikes (like say Oklahoma, ahem) but whose relative size of the outbreak is still small are not seeing similar spikes.  Not yet.  But I wonder if this is a reporting issue related to sample size.

And by the way, yes, there is reason to think Florida and Texas are under reporting.

[oilcan]

Otherwise I was reading Heritage Foundation Richard Epstein's June 6 article about Red & Blue states.  I'm interested because this jackass was my Torts professor, where he made it clear he values economic concerns...

And pastry.   

It's funny how fast people become experts in subjects they never trained in,  when they have an audience.   And funny how many don't grasp the conceptual problem of shutting a barn door after the cows have escaped.   

[bodiddley]

Especially with the internet, everyone is an expert on everything with 3 minutes of reading on a subject.

Epstein has a position at the Heritage Foundation, so I assume he needs to pump out some right wing propaganda to earn his keep.  He's a paid shill for big business and the rich, part of the network of professional conservative pontificaters.  Not that he needs too much encouragement to spout his theories.  Many of the law professors at the U of C had lucrative side gigs.

For any who have forgotten, Epstein is the right wing law prof who early on claimed there would be at most  500 deaths in the US.  Until everyone lambasted him as NYC started to explode almost immediately after he put that out.  So then a week later he claimed a simple math error and his model actually predicted 50K dead max, which he seemed to think was fully acceptable to have the economy running. You'd think you might be careful with the number of dead you predict when you run some biased model, since that's kind of important.  Of course his model was based on right wing ideas, a desire to keep the economy open as much as possible, and not that much medical science. 

The number of dead is approaching 3x his predicted max, so he wants to blame that on Blue state Govs who locked down their virus stricken states.   A month later it's another completely failed argument, as the Red states he praised in early June go into a virus tailspin from doing exactly what Trump and Epstein advocated.  But he'll just shift his argument, move some goalposts, and hide behind some other partisan nonsense.  Part of his income depends on it, as I assume his pride.  No matter how many times he's dead wrong on the virus, he won't admit anything.