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Reports of protests are overblown. A few incidents around the country, but nothing major.

5 (45.5%)

A few major incidents in capitals, but nothing much in DC.

5 (45.5%)

A major incident in DC, but nothing much around the country.

0 (0%)

More than 10 capitals have major upheavals, but nothing much in DC.

0 (0%)

A major incident in DC plus more than 10 capitals with significant upheavals.

1 (9.1%)

More than half the capitals around the country have problems with protesters, but DC is quiet.

0 (0%)

DC has major problems, while more than half the capitals around the country also have considerable trouble with protesters.

0 (0%)

Huge disruption to the day.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2021, 10:49:21 PM

[bodiddley]

60% of the residents wanted the motorcycle rally canceled.

But this is exactly where you need responsible and informed local gov't officials.  And people's preference shouldn't outweigh science, safety and the greater good.

Yes, I realize in this case, the people were right, but they could have easily been 60/40 the other way, and it shouldn't make a difference.  Lots of people aren't well-informed.

From the few photos I saw it looked like most of these folks were old or at least middle aged.  Seemed a good deal of grey.  Their returns to their hometowns are going to start the 3rd wave (that is if we're not done with the 1st and 2nd yet -- they tend to blend together).  Not like these are folks who are going to go home and self-isolate for 10 days.  Hopefully they are mostly unemployed and retired.  Being older, they're more likely to get symptoms, hopefully early if they are positive.

[Echo4]

But that's probably just my bias.

There is no existential threat.

Yes, it is your bias.

And yes, there is an existential threat and so long as people like you believe there is not one, the threat is even greater.

That you poo poo the anti-Israel language from the BDS movement you embrace - not opposition to its actions, but to its existence is exactly why there is an existential threat.

You seem to think that Israel is safe from attack when it just isn't. It's moderately safe from the kinds of invasion that they've seen in the past, but they are not safe from missiles, Iron Dome or no Iron Dome. And they sure as hell aren't safe from a smuggled nuke or bio weapons.

Given how this country handled Ukraine and Crimea, they are also not safe from betrayal from some random president or two deciding that it is no longer in our best interests to support a Jewish state.

And I will say it again, your version of history is bizarre.

I happen to agree that Israel under Netanyahoo has been a disgrace. I don't happen to think everything that Israel has done in the name of self-protection is reasonable or even remotely defensible.

But "sticks and stones" is not an appropriate characterization of what Hamas has been doing, either. You act as if the Palestinian conduct has been pristine and pure all the way along, as if there had been no effort to overthrow the king of Jordan who was providing support and resources. You act as if Egypt hasn't been wrestling with Hamas' conduct on their side of Gaza, as well.

The Hamas side of this, with its human shields, its exaggerated claims in order to win support from the outside world, and the like continues to make it harder, not easier. But just as Israel's full speed ahead defenders make it easier for Netanyahoo to commit evil, so does the vilification of Israel and all-accepting endorsement of Hamas make it easier for them. And they do, whether you care to admit it here or not.

[bodiddley]

This would be more of an attack on Rice.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/07/progressives-alarmed-by-rices-vast-investments-392507

From the dogmatic left, of course.

Seems fair to look at what companies she supports with her $40M wealth.

Rice’s first financial disclosure as an Obama White House official, filed in 2008, formed a parade of horribles for progressives. Her investments ranged from giant oil and gas companies and large financial institutions to pharmaceuticals and holdings in Las Vegas casinos owned by the Republican megadonors Sheldon Adelson and Steve Wynn.

Keystone Pipeline?
Oil and Gas?
Adelson Casinos?
Big Banking and Pharma?

I wouldn't invest in any of that.
Sounds like a Republican portfolio.
Maybe her husband is conservative(?)
A bit worrisome to me.

Certainly calls into question her commitment to the environment, green agenda and supporting climate change, skepticism of big business, etc.
I could see that as disqualifying for the #2 slot.
She wouldn't be my choice.
And it would signal Biden's intention to continue the Clinton/Obama center-right Big Business Democratic party.

[bodiddley]

The idea that the Palestinians are an existential threat to Israel, which is what was being discussed, is farcical.

All countries face threats and need a military and defense capabilities.
Israel's enemies are Iran and Syria, one under crippling economic sanctions and the other torn apart by a civil war.  Plus Lebanon, also in collapse, mainly due to Iran's proxy Hezbollah.
Are any of them able to crush or defeat Israel?  No.
Of course Israel has to be careful and maintain a strong defense.
And to their credit they're good at it.

Nobody said the Palestinians are angels.
Just that they are oppressed and trying to figure out ways to freedom and ending statelessness, and it's no surprise that some engage in asymmetric warfare.  I was referring to the WB with the knives and rocks comment.  The last real period of threat within Israel from the WB was a series of knife attacks over several years. 

The rocket attacks from Gaza are generally way oversold by Israel.  Most are homemade, uncontrolled and land in fields or the sea.  They rarely case any damage let alone deaths or injuries.  Southern Israel is mostly unpopulated desert, and the rockets are mostly dangerous nuisances.

Hamas only emerged because Israel and PLO never reached an agreement, and the oppression festered and became institutionalized.  Hamas became popular because they ran soup kitchens and medical clinics and undertook a lot of on the ground services the Palestinians badly needed.  And people liked that they were willing to stand up to and engage Israel, which only led to further destruction of Gaza.

Right now, Gaza and the WB are two different entities with two different relationships and approaches to Israel.  It's too bad that the WB cooperative model is simply allowing Israel to do whatever it wants, settle and annex more land, and going so badly for the WB Palestinians who are not any closer to statehood, and just a source of cheap labor and then sent back behind a wall after their low-pay work is done.  Otherwise the WB approach could have become a model for Gaza.  You can claim Hamas is always going to be terroristic, but that's what used to be said about the PLO.  And Hamas really needs a way out of the impasse, as the blockade and intermittent military attacks are making life unlivable there.

You can assign blame to both sides, and we should as there is enough to go around, but you can't credibly dispute who is the oppressor and who the oppressed. 

[LarryBnDC]

60% of the residents wanted the motorcycle rally canceled.

But this is exactly where you need responsible and informed local gov't officials.  And people's preference shouldn't outweigh science, safety and the greater good.

Yes, I realize in this case, the people were right, but they could have easily been 60/40 the other way, and it shouldn't make a difference.  Lots of people aren't well-informed.

From the few photos I saw it looked like most of these folks were old or at least middle aged.  Seemed a good deal of grey.  Their returns to their hometowns are going to start the 3rd wave (that is if we're not done with the 1st and 2nd yet -- they tend to blend together).  Not like these are folks who are going to go home and self-isolate for 10 days.  Hopefully they are mostly unemployed and retired.  Being older, they're more likely to get symptoms, hopefully early if they are positive.

The photo is the character Larry Vaughn, Mayor of Amity in Jaws AND Jaws II.

[LarryBnDC]

This would be more of an attack on Rice.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/07/progressives-alarmed-by-rices-vast-investments-392507

From the dogmatic left, of course.

Seems fair to look at what companies she supports with her $40M wealth.

Rice’s first financial disclosure as an Obama White House official, filed in 2008, formed a parade of horribles for progressives. Her investments ranged from giant oil and gas companies and large financial institutions to pharmaceuticals and holdings in Las Vegas casinos owned by the Republican megadonors Sheldon Adelson and Steve Wynn.

Keystone Pipeline?
Oil and Gas?
Adelson Casinos?
Big Banking and Pharma?

I wouldn't invest in any of that.
Sounds like a Republican portfolio.
Maybe her husband is conservative(?)
A bit worrisome to me.

Certainly calls into question her commitment to the environment, green agenda and supporting climate change, skepticism of big business, etc.
I could see that as disqualifying for the #2 slot.
She wouldn't be my choice.
And it would signal Biden's intention to continue the Clinton/Obama center-right Big Business Democratic party.

Her kid is a MAGA.

[Hamilton Samuels]

So you have a house ...

You forgot to mention that it was the other guy's house to begin with.
But that you used to live there a few thousand years ago ...

So they buy into the false notion that the aggressor is the oppressed and that defender is the oppressor.

I'd venture to guess that the fellers with full riot gear, high tech weaponry, plus a state (and a superpower) backing them are oppressors and the stateless folks with rocks and knives are the oppressed.  But that's probably just my bias.

This isn't the 1950's or even 1970's.  Israel today isn't the heroic plucky little newcomer, but has morphed into a wealthy occupier with nuclear weapons and US backing.  There is no existential threat, despite whatever rhetoric Bhargouthi employs.  And for you to pretend otherwise is simply fraudulent.

I doubt you could more wrong. About pretty much everything here.

[Hamilton Samuels]

The idea that the Palestinians are an existential threat to Israel, which is what was being discussed, is farcical.

All countries face threats and need a military and defense capabilities.
Israel's enemies are Iran and Syria, one under crippling economic sanctions and the other torn apart by a civil war.  Plus Lebanon, also in collapse, mainly due to Iran's proxy Hezbollah.
Are any of them able to crush or defeat Israel?  No.
Of course Israel has to be careful and maintain a strong defense.
And to their credit they're good at it.

Nobody said the Palestinians are angels.
Just that they are oppressed and trying to figure out ways to freedom and ending statelessness, and it's no surprise that some engage in asymmetric warfare.  I was referring to the WB with the knives and rocks comment.  The last real period of threat within Israel from the WB was a series of knife attacks over several years. 

The rocket attacks from Gaza are generally way oversold by Israel.  Most are homemade, uncontrolled and land in fields or the sea.  They rarely case any damage let alone deaths or injuries.  Southern Israel is mostly unpopulated desert, and the rockets are mostly dangerous nuisances.

Hamas only emerged because Israel and PLO never reached an agreement, and the oppression festered and became institutionalized.  Hamas became popular because they ran soup kitchens and medical clinics and undertook a lot of on the ground services the Palestinians badly needed.  And people liked that they were willing to stand up to and engage Israel, which only led to further destruction of Gaza.

Right now, Gaza and the WB are two different entities with two different relationships and approaches to Israel.  It's too bad that the WB cooperative model is simply allowing Israel to do whatever it wants, settle and annex more land, and going so badly for the WB Palestinians who are not any closer to statehood, and just a source of cheap labor and then sent back behind a wall after their low-pay work is done.  Otherwise the WB approach could have become a model for Gaza.  You can claim Hamas is always going to be terroristic, but that's what used to be said about the PLO.  And Hamas really needs a way out of the impasse, as the blockade and intermittent military attacks are making life unlivable there.

You can assign blame to both sides, and we should as there is enough to go around, but you can't credibly dispute who is the oppressor and who the oppressed.

Oops I was wrong. You can be more wrong.

[bodiddley]

So you got nothing except that you disagree.  Very persuasive.

[bankshot1]

You forgot to mention that it was the other guy's house to begin with.
But that you used to live there a few thousand years ago ...

At least Bo has definitively cleared up who owns title.

[Echo4]

The idea that the Palestinians are an existential threat to Israel, which is what was being discussed, is farcical.

The rocket attacks from Gaza are generally way oversold by Israel.  Most are homemade, uncontrolled and land in fields or the sea.  They rarely case any damage let alone deaths or injuries. 

"rarely" - tell that to the folks who get hit.

You act like the rockets aren't sent into cities, too. WTF, Bo?!

And as I said, it only takes one nuke to ruin the whole day. It's great that you don't think it's an existential threat. You're wrong.

You also pretend that there was no violence toward the Jews in that area until Israel declared its independence, but this is false, too.

I was asked not all that long ago what I would do and I answered it.

What is your peace plan, given that the folks who are not Israel want there to be no Israel?!

And just pretending that that Hamas doesn't really mean it doesn't fly.

[Echo4]

So you got nothing except that you disagree.  Very persuasive.

Is there something that you would find persuasive?

[Echo4]

You forgot to mention that it was the other guy's house to begin with.
But that you used to live there a few thousand years ago ...

At least Bo has definitively cleared up who owns title.

Yes.

I am all set to send him off to assist Jared, to play counterpoint to him.

[Hamilton Samuels]

So you got nothing except that you disagree.  Very persuasive.

There's no persuading the stupid. The ignorant, there's hope, but the stupid? They just get led to slaughter.

[bodiddley]

You act like the rockets aren't sent into cities, too. WTF, Bo?!

There's a weird and ugly dance going on.  Hamas knows that if they shoot at and especially if they hit an Israeli city, the retaliation against Gaza will be swift and brutal.  So they rarely aim at cities. 

And as I said, it only takes one nuke to ruin the whole day. It's great that you don't think it's an existential threat. You're wrong.
Coming from where?
The Palestinians?  Iran? Saddam Hussein?

You also pretend that there was no violence toward the Jews in that area until Israel declared its independence, but this is false, too.

No, I've said nothing about this.
There was violence on both sides.  While the Jews had a number of terrorist organization which helped chase away the British and UN and led to the founding of Israel.  Most of the early Jewish political leaders were former terrorists.

I was asked not all that long ago what I would do and I answered it.
What is your peace plan, given that the folks who are not Israel want there to be no Israel?!

Mainly create a Palestinian state in most of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Clear the settlers out of most of the (illegal) settlements and give those to Palestinians (as compensation in place of right of return).  Maybe allow a limited number of Palestinian refugees to return (500K?).  Allow Israel to keep a few contiguous settlements.  Basically I'm talking implementing the Oslo accords through to Palestinian statehood as planned.   You can place limits on Palestine having a military, allowing Israel to inspect suspect goods, etc.  Palestine can be a fledgling limited state on a sort of probation.

A  lot of international aid pouring in to Palestine would be a boon and help smooth things over.  Gaza is tougher to handle.  Unclear if it can be part of a WB Palestinian state or not, or when.  One condition would be to lift the Israel maritime blockade.  Though probably allow them the right to inspect.  I wouldn't let Gaza hamper the WB.  they can be on different schedules and joined or separate.

And just pretending that that Hamas doesn't really mean it doesn't fly.

No, I think Hamas really means it, but could change its position down the road.
As the PLO did.  I don't think the boycott movement is designed to eliminate Israel or ever could, even if some of its spokespeople want that.