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Poll

What do you expect on Wednesday?

Reports of protests are overblown. A few incidents around the country, but nothing major.
- 5 (45.5%)
A few major incidents in capitals, but nothing much in DC.
- 5 (45.5%)
A major incident in DC, but nothing much around the country.
- 0 (0%)
More than 10 capitals have major upheavals, but nothing much in DC.
- 0 (0%)
A major incident in DC plus more than 10 capitals with significant upheavals.
- 1 (9.1%)
More than half the capitals around the country have problems with protesters, but DC is quiet.
- 0 (0%)
DC has major problems, while more than half the capitals around the country also have considerable trouble with protesters.
- 0 (0%)
Huge disruption to the day.
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2021, 10:49:21 PM


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Author Topic: Trump Administration  (Read 1608498 times)

barton

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50925 on: September 21, 2020, 12:33:37 PM »

One way for Democrats to make clear they will not tolerate Republicans trying to fill this seat in advance of the election would be for them to pledge that, if they take the White House and Senate in November, they will increase the size of the Supreme Court to 13 justices.
From LAT.

Yep.

But for now one must consider that if we have another Bush v Gore, which we had no business ever having in the first place, Trump SCOTUS appointee could be involved. Also, if there is no appointee, a SCOTUS 4-4 decision could be rendered.

Then, it's "say hello to my little friend Civil War"!

The part I find confusing is that SCOTUS ties have meant that a case reverts to the lower court decision.  But where does it go when there  is no lower court involved?
Clause 2 of Article III of the Constitution explains:

Original and Appellate Jurisdiction
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be a Party, the Supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all other Cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Which I already knew, and does not answer my question at all.  When SCOTUS has original jurisdiction on a disputed POTUS election, and has empaneled an even number of justices, and TIES, how would that be resolved?  Would there be a ninth official who steps up and breaks the tie?  Would the SC farm it out to an appellate court that has an odd number?  What happens if there are disputed results in multiple states?  Basic point:  somewhere there needs to be an odd-numbered court that cannot tie. 
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Kam

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50926 on: September 21, 2020, 12:35:57 PM »



Us. They'll remember us.  Just like we remember the germans... all germans... for allowing an insane racist to have so much power.
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Kam

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50927 on: September 21, 2020, 12:41:13 PM »

China: fewer than 5,000 CV deaths
ON THEIR SOIL
100 times as many caused elsewhere

Any explanation for why the US has the highest number of both infections and CV deaths.  How did that happen?

"Nobody could have done better."

"If you subtract the blue states..."

"It is what it is."

No, he has no explanations, just excuses and distractions and lies. Why would you expect anything different?

Oh, also evasions and ignoring the question are in his command.

We elected a Troll. 
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bodiddley

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Be Plus
« Reply #50928 on: September 21, 2020, 01:09:20 PM »

Any explanation for why the US has the highest number of both infections and CV deaths.  How did that happen?

They didn't listen to the all knowing almighty Bo from Elba

Wasn't he the guy who was here advocating face masks starting March 3?

(would have been earlier but I was somehow on vacation in the Mediterranean for two weeks).

So you have nada for why the US has over 20% of the world's infections and deaths.  Noted.
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Good Gov't Saves Lives
 --- Bad Gov't Kills ---

oilcan

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50929 on: September 21, 2020, 01:11:27 PM »

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/20/1979054/-Watch-Ted-Cruz-defend-Supreme-Court-hypocrisy-by-talking-about-something-else

Less crazed than a Chuck Grassley tweet, but that's about it.

Either there's a Garland Rule, or there's not, and that's the nasty reality that none of these hacks can get around no matter how much they blather along.  This all goes well beyond hypocrisy - this is pure chickenshit game playing - making shit up, distracting, and switching rules whenever you can get away with it.  These lying shitsacks have never been even remotely interested in "letting the people decide."  If they were, we'd elect presidents by popular vote, voter suppression would be history, good postal service would be considered a sacrament, and gerrymandering would be a felony. 

And, as the article notes, George Snuffleupagus has never been able to pitch a hardball question. 
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oilcan

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50930 on: September 21, 2020, 01:13:01 PM »

BO (OR HAIRYLIME),

do either of you have any answer to Barton's question about tie-breaking if an even numbered SCOTUS deliberates on a disputed election?

IIRC, you are both lawyerly types.

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REDSTATEWARD

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50931 on: September 21, 2020, 01:15:52 PM »

One way for Democrats to make clear they will not tolerate Republicans trying to fill this seat in advance of the election would be for them to pledge that, if they take the White House and Senate in November, they will increase the size of the Supreme Court to 13 justices.
From LAT.

Yep.

But for now one must consider that if we have another Bush v Gore, which we had no business ever having in the first place, Trump SCOTUS appointee could be involved. Also, if there is no appointee, a SCOTUS 4-4 decision could be rendered.

Then, it's "say hello to my little friend Civil War"!

The part I find confusing is that SCOTUS ties have meant that a case reverts to the lower court decision.  But where does it go when there  is no lower court involved?
Clause 2 of Article III of the Constitution explains:

Original and Appellate Jurisdiction
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be a Party, the Supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all other Cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Which I already knew, and does not answer my question at all.  When SCOTUS has original jurisdiction on a disputed POTUS election, and has empaneled an even number of justices, and TIES, how would that be resolved?  Would there be a ninth official who steps up and breaks the tie?  Would the SC farm it out to an appellate court that has an odd number?  What happens if there are disputed results in multiple states?  Basic point:  somewhere there needs to be an odd-numbered court that cannot tie.
In the case of a Hung Jury the case would stay at the level that existed before the original action at SCOTUS.
If, for example, it was a dispute over a State’s election results then the results as certified by the State would stand.
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barton

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50932 on: September 21, 2020, 01:21:11 PM »

Well, as far as I can tell from looking further into this, there is always a lower court ruling which can be allowed to stand by SCOTUS.  IOW, the Supremes would not take a case from an electoral dispute in a specific state which had not already gone to that state's supreme court.  That's what happened in Florida, with Bush v Gore.  If there had been only eight justices on the SCt at that time, then the Florida SC decision would have stood. 

So jurisdiction always starts out at the state level, so the problem I was wondering about would not happen.


And yes, thank you, Red.  Your answer would therefore be correct. 

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kiidcarter8

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josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50934 on: September 21, 2020, 01:39:41 PM »

One way for Democrats to make clear they will not tolerate Republicans trying to fill this seat in advance of the election would be for them to pledge that, if they take the White House and Senate in November, they will increase the size of the Supreme Court to 13 justices.
From LAT.

Yep.

But for now one must consider that if we have another Bush v Gore, which we had no business ever having in the first place, Trump SCOTUS appointee could be involved. Also, if there is no appointee, a SCOTUS 4-4 decision could be rendered.

Then, it's "say hello to my little friend Civil War"!

The part I find confusing is that SCOTUS ties have meant that a case reverts to the lower court decision.  But where does it go when there  is no lower court involved?
Clause 2 of Article III of the Constitution explains:

Original and Appellate Jurisdiction
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be a Party, the Supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all other Cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Which I already knew, and does not answer my question at all.  When SCOTUS has original jurisdiction on a disputed POTUS election, and has empaneled an even number of justices, and TIES, how would that be resolved?  Would there be a ninth official who steps up and breaks the tie?  Would the SC farm it out to an appellate court that has an odd number?  What happens if there are disputed results in multiple states?  Basic point:  somewhere there needs to be an odd-numbered court that cannot tie.

No, there is no extra official. There is no appellate court to send it to.

It happens more frequently than people seem to guess that there is an even number of justices. We had 8 for 14 months between Scalia's death and Gorsuch's approval. This makes the whole "it is urgent for the sake of the country..." line laughable.

We have had even numbered SCOTUS terms on multiple occasions in the past, set that way by Congress. Indeed, it started with six justices, dropped to five by John Adams in a lame duck session to try to constrain Jefferson. The new president and new Congress returned it to six, where it sat as the formal maximum for a whopping six years, when Jefferson and Congress bumped it up to seven. (He had a good reason.) 30 years later, it rose to 9 for the first, but not last, time. It was briefly at 10, after a vote in 1863, but reverted to 9 not long later.

Not every case that they deadlock on is left to the prior decision. Instead, they will hold it over until the next term. This happens even when they have a lower court decision they could allow it to revert back to. This happened with the Oklahoma case, if I am not mistaken.

Disputed presidential elections have not yet initiated with SCOTUS, the few that there have been. There was a prior court decision in 2000, for example, and honestly one that should have held. SCOTUS should have either not granted cert or should have ruled that they did not have jurisdiction.

But if one did and they could not rule, it would first go to the House, thence to the order of succession.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50935 on: September 21, 2020, 01:43:06 PM »

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/20/1979054/-Watch-Ted-Cruz-defend-Supreme-Court-hypocrisy-by-talking-about-something-else

Less crazed than a Chuck Grassley tweet, but that's about it.

Either there's a Garland Rule, or there's not...

There is a Garland Rule:

"If the GOP can block the Dems from SCOTUS seats, they will. If they can put through a seat of their own, they will."

Is this really unclear?!
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

LarryBnDC

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50936 on: September 21, 2020, 01:43:18 PM »

BO (OR HAIRYLIME),

do either of you have any answer to Barton's question about tie-breaking if an even numbered SCOTUS deliberates on a disputed election?

IIRC, you are both lawyerly types.

It would go back to the last court to make decision, right?
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If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

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josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50937 on: September 21, 2020, 01:45:56 PM »

BO (OR HAIRYLIME),

do either of you have any answer to Barton's question about tie-breaking if an even numbered SCOTUS deliberates on a disputed election?

IIRC, you are both lawyerly types.

It would go back to the last court to make decision, right?

In the problem as stated, it was a case that originated at the SCOTUS level, leaving no prior decision to fall back on - something that has not happened on a presidential election issue.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

LarryBnDC

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50938 on: September 21, 2020, 01:48:04 PM »

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/9/20/1979054/-Watch-Ted-Cruz-defend-Supreme-Court-hypocrisy-by-talking-about-something-else

Less crazed than a Chuck Grassley tweet, but that's about it.

Either there's a Garland Rule, or there's not...

There is a Garland Rule:

"If the GOP can block the Dems from SCOTUS seats, they will. If they can put through a seat of their own, they will."

Is this really unclear?!

Two basic rules for the GOP is first, there are no rules. Second rule? See first rule.

For the GOP it’s always, “heads I win tails you lose.”
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If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

Lyndon Johnson

LarryBnDC

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #50939 on: September 21, 2020, 01:51:35 PM »

BO (OR HAIRYLIME),

do either of you have any answer to Barton's question about tie-breaking if an even numbered SCOTUS deliberates on a disputed election?

IIRC, you are both lawyerly types.

It would go back to the last court to make decision, right?

In the problem as stated, it was a case that originated at the SCOTUS level, leaving no prior decision to fall back on - something that has not happened on a presidential election issue.

I know 5he hypothetical being discussed in the media is the fucked up decision in Texas that one piece of Obamacare night be ‘unconstitutional ‘ therefore the whole law has to go. 4-4 and that case from Texas stands, no?

Crazy shit.

Once again with Obamacare the GOP is the dog that actually caught the car.
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If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

Lyndon Johnson
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