Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Reports of protests are overblown. A few incidents around the country, but nothing major.

5 (45.5%)

A few major incidents in capitals, but nothing much in DC.

5 (45.5%)

A major incident in DC, but nothing much around the country.

0 (0%)

More than 10 capitals have major upheavals, but nothing much in DC.

0 (0%)

A major incident in DC plus more than 10 capitals with significant upheavals.

1 (9.1%)

More than half the capitals around the country have problems with protesters, but DC is quiet.

0 (0%)

DC has major problems, while more than half the capitals around the country also have considerable trouble with protesters.

0 (0%)

Huge disruption to the day.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2021, 10:49:21 PM

[bodiddley]

During the UN partition, there was always talk of separate Jewish and Arab states being formed.  Zionism was intended to create a Jewish state in the Biblical homeland.  After the Holocaust much of the Western world was in sympathy with creating a Jewish state where Jews could be safe.  That some Arabs remained (and were not forced out like many) was sort of an accident, though largely to be expected.  Israel's basic law refers to itself as a Jewish state.  Only Jews are permitted to immigrate to Israel and become citizens, etc.  Despite not being 100% Jewish, Israel is and was intended to be a Jewish state.

I think it's quite different than the US, which has a different history and political founding.  Even the religious groups who founded some of the colonies in North America were fleeing religious intolerance in Europe, and didn't wnat to replicate that (though I think Rhode Island colony banned other religions).  The Founding Fathers intentionally made religion and govt separate and forbade any institutionalized religion (though they were concerned about specific Christian domination taking over, and wren't opposed to Christian trappings in gov't).  Of course America's immigration policy has been discriminatory, but plenty of different religious groups have come over.  And it's a pretty big mix of religious groups.

So I just think it's a different history, political culture and context, and self-identity. 

The new law passed last year by Netanyahu's  gov't was controversial since it intentionally bolstered Jewishness and downgraded the status of Arabs in Israel.   but Israel as Jewish state is nothing new and hasn't been controversial.  I did find it objectionable when the Israel Gov't insisted for any peace treaty with Syria, that Syria would have to recognize Israel as "a Jewish state."   Of course such preconditions likely reflects the fact that the Netanyahu gov't doesn't really want to make such a peace or to even have to consider changing the status of the Golan Heights.

[bankshot1]

Perhaps Israel sought deeper assurances that its Arab neighbors recognize its right to exist, its legitimacy, and end calls for the extermination of Jews in Israel.

And I believe boycots are a legitimate tool and should be applied to truly bad actors who crush dissent. China for example. 

[barton]

I am aware of Israel's history as a Jewish homeland, but my point was more that democracy, in the world, had shifted away from such national identifications.  Our nation, when founded in the 1700s, very much identified itself as Christian (just not a specific sect, like the Church of England), but for many people that no longer makes sense, and the concept of separation of church and state has broadened.

 I think Jews who firmly grasp the value of not identifying America as Christian, can also appreciate that the same principles of liberal democracy would apply in other nations now.   So the intention to have Israel continue to be a Jewish state should be questioned in this ideological light.  Just as people question repressive acts in other countries that identify as Muslim states, it is reasonable to question a Jewish state, especially when a quarter of the population is not Jewish.  Whatever the history, those people are not "accidents" any more.  Hope that clarifies my previous comments a bit.  I don't think an [ANY SECT] state is still a good idea.

[LarryBnDC]

Perhaps Israel sought deeper assurances that its Arab neighbors recognize its right to exist, its legitimacy, and end calls for the extermination of Jews in Israel.

And I believe boycots are a legitimate tool and should be applied to truly bad actors who crush dissent. China for example.

I agree, but with the Israeli government under Netanyahu brokering a coalition of the religious nationalist Jewish Home party with Otzma Yehudit, (racist successor to the Meir Kahane Kach party) the Israel we both know and love is going down a bad path to outright apartheid and boycotts and divestment worked out ok in South Africa. Not saying Israel is SA... but the Israelis are treating certain Jews as second class citizens, the people who used to be known as the Falasha.

It seems Bibi and The Donald are in the same boat... stay in office or go to jail.

[HamiltonIII]

Trump wrecking Obama's economy. Sad.

[HamiltonIII]

The extent of Ms Tlaib's disdain for Jews is not important, mr moderator

Take it up with Ward, who raised the issue.

The Israeli government announced Thursday it would not allow Democratic Reps. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan and Ilhan Omar of Minnesota to enter their borders for a planned trip into Palestinian territory, citing the two lawmakers’ support for the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS)
movement. Under Israeli law, anyone who supports the boycott of Israel may be banned from the country.
Political parties that oppose BDS include the Liberal Party of Australia and BOTH major political parties in the United States.A common reason given for opposing BDS is that it attacks Israel's legitimacy and fosters antisemitism.

Yup.

A common reason given in opposition to BDS. Not something she said. Something others have decided that what she did has the effect of doing - you know, like we tell you that Trump's speeches and attitude foster racism and violence.

Oh, right - you deny that he does that, by saying nothing about it. Kid denies it by denying it.


But no, BDS is short-sighted and hypocritical, but it is not, in and of itself, anti-semitic. Lots of motivations are attributed to Tlaib based on that one fact, but they don't align with what other things she says and has done. This is in contrast with President Trump whose racist rhetoric aligns with his racist actions.

You're like Gumby on this one. Knotted up. It's simple. Israel can decide who they would like in their country, and they gave a sound, legitimate reason.

Shortsighted as it was.

Netanyahu missed a chance to show them around and educate them as to what is really going on. Instead, what's been done is to reinforce their views.

Dumb politics.

[bodiddley]

Last Israeli election, the choice was between Netanyahu and his right-wing and Russian allies v. a party led by a quartet of generals who argued Netanyahu was too soft on the Palestinians.  The concept and reality of Israel has been deeply harmed by the protracted dispute with the Palestinians.

Perhaps not exactly divide and conquer, but Israel has done a masterful job at separating and stratifying the Palestinians into many groups.  You have the Arab-Israelis who are IL citizens (1.8M).  Palestinians living in and around East Jerusalem with certain rights (nearly 0.5M); 2.1M West Bank Palestinians (with significant self-rule within one of the three West Bank security zones); and 1.8M Gazans under heavy restriction which some have taken to calling "an open air prison."

Almost amazing that the Palestinians in and around Israel/Palestine have been divided into 3 almost equal sized groups with different interests, rights, geography.  Then there's another 2M Palestinians in Jordan, with about 400K of those stateless refugees.  And another 500K Palestinian refugees in camps in Lebanon.   Added all up, and it's similar to the 8.7M population of Israel itself, and more than the 6.5M Jewish population there.

Right now, the Gazan and WB Palestinians are at odds.
Gaza under severe lockdown; West Bank Palestinians largely responsible for policing themselves; Arab-Israelis fairly marginalized with little political power; and Palestinians outside Israel/Palestine nearly invisible.
So Israel with little incentive to change much.  And emboldened by the the Trumpeters to inappropriately appropriate more land.

[bodiddley]

Many things would have been different if the US had encouraged businesses to invest in factories and supply chains in India and Pakistan, instead of China. 

And it would have made more sense to encourage outsourcing and production in South America rather than China. 

Unfortunately, the US rarely does economic planning or consider the links between geo-politics and economics.  Buying Saudi oil and continuing to do so has had a fair amount of blowback and negative consequences.

I think Trump would be shrewd to off-handedly suggests that the US starts encouraging manufacturing in South America & Mexico and buying goods from there instead of China.  That'd be a body blow that would catch China's attention.  Support neighbors and allies, instead of funneling money to China.

[HamiltonIII]

Last Israeli election, the choice was between Netanyahu and his right-wing and Russian allies v. a party led by a quartet of generals who argued Netanyahu was too soft on the Palestinians.  The concept and reality of Israel has been deeply harmed by the protracted dispute with the Palestinians.

Perhaps not exactly divide and conquer, but Israel has done a masterful job at separating and stratifying the Palestinians into many groups.  You have the Arab-Israelis who are IL citizens (1.8M).  Palestinians living in and around East Jerusalem with certain rights (nearly 0.5M); 2.1M West Bank Palestinians (with significant self-rule within one of the three West Bank security zones); and 1.8M Gazans under heavy restriction which some have taken to calling "an open air prison."

Almost amazing that the Palestinians in and around Israel/Palestine have been divided into 3 almost equal sized groups with different interests, rights, geography.  Then there's another 2M Palestinians in Jordan, with about 400K of those stateless refugees.  And another 500K Palestinian refugees in camps in Lebanon.   Added all up, and it's similar to the 8.7M population of Israel itself, and more than the 6.5M Jewish population there.

Right now, the Gazan and WB Palestinians are at odds.
Gaza under severe lockdown; West Bank Palestinians largely responsible for policing themselves; Arab-Israelis fairly marginalized with little political power; and Palestinians outside Israel/Palestine nearly invisible.
So Israel with little incentive to change much.  And emboldened by the the Trumpeters to inappropriately appropriate more land.

Nah. You're wrong. But thanks for checking in.

[josh]

The extent of Ms Tlaib's disdain for Jews is not important, mr moderator

Take it up with Ward, who raised the issue.

The Israeli government announced Thursday it would not allow Democratic Reps. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan and Ilhan Omar of Minnesota to enter their borders for a planned trip into Palestinian territory, citing the two lawmakers’ support for the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS)
movement. Under Israeli law, anyone who supports the boycott of Israel may be banned from the country.
Political parties that oppose BDS include the Liberal Party of Australia and BOTH major political parties in the United States.A common reason given for opposing BDS is that it attacks Israel's legitimacy and fosters antisemitism.

Yup.

A common reason given in opposition to BDS. Not something she said. Something others have decided that what she did has the effect of doing - you know, like we tell you that Trump's speeches and attitude foster racism and violence.

Oh, right - you deny that he does that, by saying nothing about it. Kid denies it by denying it.


But no, BDS is short-sighted and hypocritical, but it is not, in and of itself, anti-semitic. Lots of motivations are attributed to Tlaib based on that one fact, but they don't align with what other things she says and has done. This is in contrast with President Trump whose racist rhetoric aligns with his racist actions.

You're like Gumby on this one. Knotted up. It's simple. Israel can decide who they would like in their country, and they gave a sound, legitimate reason.

Shortsighted as it was.

Netanyahu missed a chance to show them around and educate them as to what is really going on. Instead, what's been done is to reinforce their views.

Dumb politics.

Ignoring the personal comment, I agree with everything else you said.

Part of why it was a screw up is that their Ambassador had said that any Congressfolk would be welcome. Part of why it was a screw up was because Israel bent to Trump in a dumb way. And the rest is what you said - missed opportunity compounded with unfortunate negative publicity.

None of that is surprising - it is typical Netanyahu, especially when he is under pressure at home and trying to appease the hard-liners who keep him in office. But still dumb.

[josh]

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/412869036004625/

This is a video of Princeton Professor Eddie Glaude on Trump, shootings, and racism in America. Quite a speech.

[josh]

But no, BDS is short-sighted and hypocritical

Why?

(a) I agree with the legitimacy of boycotts as a form of pressure on an errant state.

(b) I am pretty outraged by the Netanyahu government's cavalier treatment of land.

(c) I agree that Israel is not interested in a two state solution, but I am pretty sure that the Palestinians aren't, either, at least in their current political cast (as discussed elsewhere by somebody else). Nor do I think that a "state" with Gaza and the West Bank would be especially viable as a single entity, even if they were on the same page politically at some given moment in time. Hard enough for Michigan with the UP! Somebody is always going to feel like they are ignored. Messy.

There are two kinds of BDS supporters, those who are anti-Israel and want it dissolved and those who are pro-Israel and want it to live up to its promise and potential.

I think the second group is short-sighted in that while their goals are reasonable, they have harnessed themselves with some dangerous folks who will not let the group go where the pro-Israel folks want it to. They may know it, but I think they overestimate their influence and underestimate the potential damage.

I think it's hypocritical because the boycott is so selective, allowing everybody to take advantage of the inventions of Israelis out of personal (and organizational) convenience.  "You are being bad, so we are punishing you, but will you keep inventing useful stuff? Thanks!"

The other thing that remains is that Israel gets this attention for two reasons:
1) It is still an acceptable group to focus on, and
2) They, even under Netanyahi, are more responsive to public pressure than any other country in the Mideast and almost any other country in the world!

There are conflicts in the world with more injustice, vastly more dead citizenry, etc. But none is as attractive a target is Israel is.

I have not forgotten that the PLO attemted to overthrow Jordan and would have been perfectly happy to take over that country for their people. Nor has the fact of hundreds of thousands of Jews being expelled from their homes in the wake of Israel's founding escaped me, for all that there is little to no discussion of that.

The history, both ancient and intermediate, is more complicated than most people consider, but they have a hard enough time grasping the relatively modern history!

I don't believe Hamas will accept peace with Israel under any circumstance. I think there is more than a bit of irony in the objection to Israel's demand that they be accepted as a Jewish state by Syria, given how Damascus handles its ostensibly non-sectarian government.

And had Israel simply claimed the West Bank and Gaza at the end of (one of the) wars, their lives would have been far easier, but they get so much more flack than, say, Russia or China have in their siezures of other countries. Tibet is almost 4 times larger than Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon, plus Syria! Occupied in 1950, after the state of Israel was founded. The Russian grab of Crimea would merely be about the same as the combination if Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, but they have also occupied area that same size again. 2014.

Anybody organizing an equivalent of BDS against either of them? No? Huh. Go figure!

Don't even start me on Hawaii.

[FlyingVProd]

Ivanka is helping the women to open businesses in Latin America, which is cool. They set it up so that the women can get special loans to start their businesses.

The Arabs have contributed a lot to the fund.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/19/ivanka-trumps-we-fi-fund-initiative-to-unlock-billions-for-women.html

They plan to unleash one point seven trillion dollars worth of economic activity world wide, with women in lead roles.

I like Ivanka, and she is doing a good job.

On the issue of China, we need for China to evolve towards a more democratic and open system with more freedom and with more wealth for the Chinese workers, and we need for China to become a consumer nation, we need for the Chinese to buy American products, etc. And labor unions can help China to evolve peacefully, and wealth and power can be transferred from the government over to the people like Poland with Solidarity.

The people of China need to form labor unions, and they need to get out and march for higher wages, and for shorter work days, and they can march for more democracy, and they can march for whatever else they want. The workers of China need to join together with the marchers in Hong Kong, and they need to march together in support for each other. Taiwan can show support for democracy and higher wages, etc, too. And Japan and the Philippines and others can all show support for more freedom and higher wages in China, and the USA can show support for the workers as well.

The USA, and Latin America, and others, can sell stuff to the Chinese as the Chinese workers begin to earn more money.

We can work together to create a more peaceful and prosperous and more free planet.

Salute,

Tony V.

[bambu.]

Don't forget, if you see Jesus at the office Christmas party...it's His birthday!

[bambu.]

Last Israeli election, the choice was between Netanyahu and his right-wing and Russian allies v. a party led by a quartet of generals who argued Netanyahu was too soft on the Palestinians.  The concept and reality of Israel has been deeply harmed by the protracted dispute with the Palestinians.

Perhaps not exactly divide and conquer, but Israel has done a masterful job at separating and stratifying the Palestinians into many groups.  You have the Arab-Israelis who are IL citizens (1.8M).  Palestinians living in and around East Jerusalem with certain rights (nearly 0.5M); 2.1M West Bank Palestinians (with significant self-rule within one of the three West Bank security zones); and 1.8M Gazans under heavy restriction which some have taken to calling "an open air prison."

Almost amazing that the Palestinians in and around Israel/Palestine have been divided into 3 almost equal sized groups with different interests, rights, geography.  Then there's another 2M Palestinians in Jordan, with about 400K of those stateless refugees.  And another 500K Palestinian refugees in camps in Lebanon.   Added all up, and it's similar to the 8.7M population of Israel itself, and more than the 6.5M Jewish population there.

Right now, the Gazan and WB Palestinians are at odds.
Gaza under severe lockdown; West Bank Palestinians largely responsible for policing themselves; Arab-Israelis fairly marginalized with little political power; and Palestinians outside Israel/Palestine nearly invisible.
So Israel with little incentive to change much.  And emboldened by the the Trumpeters to inappropriately appropriate more land.

If only the Palestinians didn't keep saying "We will drive Israel into the sea".