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Total Members Voted: 1

Voting closed: October 22, 2020, 02:04:36 PM

[Yankguy1]

Of course we don't know "what was offered".  My question was whether Ham would have offered sensitivity training in lieu of dismissal.  To make Gruden a better person.

[kidcarter8]

Would you?

Was Gruden dismissed?

HamilSam's thoughts here might be directed more at the so-called thought police so prevalent in today's USA.  They pick and choose who to attack.

Life Wreckers United

[Hamilton Samuels]

So if you were in charge of the Raiders you would have offered him sensitivity training?

What's with rewording my clearly written opinion?

I don't know what was offered to him, I just think that if the goal is to arrest the plague of disfunctional activities in the workplace, that the thinking has to be more about education than punishment.

From wikipedia: A hard-throwing left-hander, Howe was the Rookie of the Year in 1980, saved the clinching game of the 1981 World Series, and was an All-Star in 1982. However, his career was derailed by problems with alcohol and cocaine abuse. He was suspended seven times by Major League Baseball for drug-policy violations, and in 1992 he received a lifetime ban from baseball that he was able to overturn with an appeal. After each disciplinary action, he returned to show flashes of his former brilliance. He died in a single-vehicle accident in 2006, after which an autopsy identified the presence of methamphetamine in his system.

So, there was no EAP for Mr. Howe in those days, like there is today. The culture was changed from within, and the result is that today, when players have substance abuse issues or even domestic violence issues, they get help.

I don't see why the greater public (ie, the left and the sports media) doesn't embrace an EAP for the kinds of behavior that Gruden and others have shown, other than politics and money, but mostly money---which act as the usual barometer(s) for morality in pro sports.

Think Gruden would have been personally better off with emersion in a learning experience about his biases sponsored by his employers and the league or by the self-suspension?

[Yankguy1]

Would you?

Was Gruden dismissed?

HamilSam's thoughts here might be directed more at the so-called thought police so prevalent in today's USA.  They pick and choose who to attack.

Life Wreckers United

I would have fired Gruden.  He beat me to it by resigning.

[Yankguy1]

So if you were in charge of the Raiders you would have offered him sensitivity training?

What's with rewording my clearly written opinion?

I don't know what was offered to him, I just think that if the goal is to arrest the plague of disfunctional activities in the workplace, that the thinking has to be more about education than punishment.

From wikipedia: A hard-throwing left-hander, Howe was the Rookie of the Year in 1980, saved the clinching game of the 1981 World Series, and was an All-Star in 1982. However, his career was derailed by problems with alcohol and cocaine abuse. He was suspended seven times by Major League Baseball for drug-policy violations, and in 1992 he received a lifetime ban from baseball that he was able to overturn with an appeal. After each disciplinary action, he returned to show flashes of his former brilliance. He died in a single-vehicle accident in 2006, after which an autopsy identified the presence of methamphetamine in his system.

So, there was no EAP for Mr. Howe in those days, like there is today. The culture was changed from within, and the result is that today, when players have substance abuse issues or even domestic violence issues, they get help.

I don't see why the greater public (ie, the left and the sports media) doesn't embrace an EAP for the kinds of behavior that Gruden and others have shown, other than politics and money, but mostly money---which act as the usual barometer(s) for morality in pro sports.

Think Gruden would have been personally better off with emersion in a learning experience about his biases sponsored by his employers and the league or by the self-suspension?

Your clearly written opinion does not appear to answer my simple question as to what you would have done if you were the Raiders' boss.

[Hairy Lime]

Not even Gruden has spent much time defending himself.

Who is defending him?

I'm just showing how the world has changed.

Maybe if you put aside your own biases, you could see that.


Still Wondering what Goodwill, who let Kraft skate, is going to do about Snyder, though.

What "biases" might those be?

Don't be coy.

I want to be a better person.  Please tell me how my "biases" are preventing from me accepting that you were merely making a "times have changed" observation.

Or let me ask you a question.  Do you think Gruden being removed from job (even if he did the removing) because of his comments was the correct thing to do?

It was the best thing for the employer to do.

What is popular isn't always right, and what is right isn't always popular.

So, yes, it was. the right thing do in that he was essentially rendered useless to the organization.

However, given that he was offered no employee assistance program to become, like you, a better person, maybe it wasn't so right.

If he had a drug and alcohol or gambling addiction problem, he wouldn't get fired, he'd get treatment for this malady.

So, given he has to learn to be a better person, in order to be considered moral enough to send people out on to a field to risk life, limb, and permanent injury for our entertainment, I believe an opportunity was missed by the organization to keep his skills in play for them, while helping him learn to be a better individual.

But that wasn't offered. Instead he was asked to walk the plank and he was fed to the holier-than-thou crowd AKA the sports media.

As usual, these are not either/or things, but in a world where wins and losses are all that matter, he lost, and the organization lost.

You can figure out who wins.

It is a really fine line between painting Gruden as a victim and defending him, Forrest. So fine that it does not exist. He was a victim of himself, not the sports media.

[josh]

does any morals clause include past transgression?

Would JG have been entitled to some type of buyout?

The Commish doesn't care what the clauses say. He has all power.

And if he was possibly but not obviously entitled to a buyout, trying to get it would have resulted in the circus he was seeking to avoid.

[josh]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/sport/gruden-raiders-history-race-blake-cec/index.html

A piece about why Gruden's hiring and firing were ironic for the Raiders.

(I didn't know that about Plunkett!)

[Hamilton Samuels]

So if you were in charge of the Raiders you would have offered him sensitivity training?

What's with rewording my clearly written opinion?

I don't know what was offered to him, I just think that if the goal is to arrest the plague of disfunctional activities in the workplace, that the thinking has to be more about education than punishment.

From wikipedia: A hard-throwing left-hander, Howe was the Rookie of the Year in 1980, saved the clinching game of the 1981 World Series, and was an All-Star in 1982. However, his career was derailed by problems with alcohol and cocaine abuse. He was suspended seven times by Major League Baseball for drug-policy violations, and in 1992 he received a lifetime ban from baseball that he was able to overturn with an appeal. After each disciplinary action, he returned to show flashes of his former brilliance. He died in a single-vehicle accident in 2006, after which an autopsy identified the presence of methamphetamine in his system.

So, there was no EAP for Mr. Howe in those days, like there is today. The culture was changed from within, and the result is that today, when players have substance abuse issues or even domestic violence issues, they get help.

I don't see why the greater public (ie, the left and the sports media) doesn't embrace an EAP for the kinds of behavior that Gruden and others have shown, other than politics and money, but mostly money---which act as the usual barometer(s) for morality in pro sports.

Think Gruden would have been personally better off with emersion in a learning experience about his biases sponsored by his employers and the league or by the self-suspension?

Your clearly written opinion does not appear to answer my simple question as to what you would have done if you were the Raiders' boss.

You haven't answered my question here, either.

[Hamilton Samuels]

Interesting piece:

https://deadspin.com/bucs-remove-gruden-from-ring-of-honor-yet-leave-antoni-1847854274

[kidcarter8]

I would respect the Bucs more if they went the other way

[josh]

I would respect the Bucs more if they went the other way

I think they're bi.

Just like Superman.

[Yankguy1]

I have learned the hard way: you are nothing in this world if you are not respected by Kid.

[kidcarter8]

I would respect the Bucs more if they went the other way

I think they're bi.

Just like Superman.

Just on paper

[kidcarter8]

You might call this guy a clown for some of his actions as Bucs coach

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McKay_(American_football)

Yep.  In the Ring of Honor.