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Voting closed: October 22, 2020, 02:05:59 PM

[CaptainCargo]

Fair enough my friend.

[Yankguy1]

There is nothing in the targeting rule that says that an offensive player can't be called for targeting.  The key to rule is whether the player struck is defenseless.  I agree, though, that in the scenario you describe Fields wouldn't have been called for targeting.  And for the most part, I guess, it's hard to conceive of a defensive player being, well, defenseless.

[bankshot1]

Fair enough my friend.

and HNY to you and your family

[Yankguy1]

.  And for the most part, I guess, it's hard to conceive of a defensive player being, well, defenseless.

I think you may be forgetting the crack-back block and blind-sided peal-back blocks where the defender is definitely considered "defenseless".

Fair enough.

[Espnthree]

Curious that Texas is betting on its return to upper tier of college football by giving the reins to Steve Sarkisian.
Granted that the Longhorns were forced to fire Tom Herman once it became known that its offer to Urban Meyer was refused.  Herman was neutered in recruiting after that. In addition Herman’s 38-12 looks decent except for the fact his teams never won a championship and 27 of those 50 games were decided by 7 points or less and, of those, 16 games were against unranked teams..
Sarkisian had modest success at Washington but his stint at USC was marred by a reported drinking problem.
He became an analyst under Nick Saban then promoted to Offensive coordinator when Lane Kiffen left.
Now Sarkisian is considered an offensive guru running the Tide’s explosive offense led by Mack Jones, Devonta Smith, Jaylen Waddle, et al.
But those players were recruited by Saban.
Can Sarkisian keep up in the recruiting wars with Saban, Day, Kelly, Swinney, and Jimbo?
Texas just signed $25 million worth of payout checks to Herman and his departing coaches.
The stakes are pretty high.

[Espnthree]

When the winless New York Jets put together a two game victory streak late in the season fans laughed as the hapless jets moved from first round draft choice to second.  Clemson phenom Trevor Lawrence would go first in the draft.
Then Clemson fell to Ohio State and a game-of-the-year performance by Justin Fields in a CFP semi-final game.

Trevor who?

[Hairy Lime]

A few observations even though Banks and Cap have okie dokied and move on....

Tackling technique has changed over the years (along with face mask design, and yes, they are connected).  Sticking your face mask into the sternum of the QB as he throws was very popular.
But that technique was not recommended for bringing down a 240 lb  fullback with a head of steam and his head lowered to ram anyone in his path. (More on that running back head butt later). Little scat-back types could be hit high with great success. 
The head in front of the runner and wrapping up both legs was very effective when tackling from the side angle.  And for awhile some Coaches advocated the rodeo tackle with shooting for one leg and lifting.  This technique was favored by the wrestling coaches bidding their Time until winter sports were in season.
Using the helmet as a weapon was used by both runners and tacklers.  I always wore shoulder pads that fit close to the neck and could position my helmet to brace against the pads for ranming
when necessary.
Spearing was against the rules, but not enforced with much enthusiasm by officials.  The most common case of spearing was driving your helmet into a runner who was down or almost down on the ground before the whistle blew.  DB's and Safeties were the main culprits.   Certain college teams made this their MO in the Intimidation game. 

Now the play in discussion....lets suppose that the Clemson LB keeps his head up and the BuckNut
QB rams the crown of his helmet into the defender, is that targeting?  Of course not.
I am and have been in favor of the targeting rule from the get-go, but this was not the situation
the rule makers had in mind, IMO, when they with the best of intentions implemented this rule
for the safety of the players.   

Don't know who the replay official was, but I have seen many similar hits since this rule was added
that have not led to an ejection.

Okie Dokie!

To clarify, the ClemSIN player lead with the crown of his helmet. That is targeting. It is ways targeting, offense or defense, defenseless or not. And regardless of what the targeted player is doing - Fields was trying to get a couple more yards to get a first down. If the kid goes in any other way than head down, crown first, there is no penalty. There are times, particularly with helmet to helmet contact, when you can empathize with a defensive player who gets caught by a player ducking his head, but this one was clearly illegal under a circumstances and an easy hit to avoid. I have never seen a crown of the helmet not called by replay, if it was missed on the field (as this one was).

[Hairy Lime]

There is nothing in the targeting rule that says that an offensive player can't be called for targeting.  The key to rule is whether the player struck is defenseless.  I agree, though, that in the scenario you describe Fields wouldn't have been called for targeting.  And for the most part, I guess, it's hard to conceive of a defensive player being, well, defenseless.

And the BuckNut QB was "defenseless" because he chose to turn and lead with his back?

Well, defenseless was irrelevant to the call, but he was trying to avoid the tackle to get a first down.  Needed two more, and he was hoping to either make the player miss, or at least deflect the blow to get two more yards. ClemSIN kid goes in anyway other than crown first and it is a good football play, both ways.

[Hairy Lime]

.  And for the most part, I guess, it's hard to conceive of a defensive player being, well, defenseless.

I think you may be forgetting the crack-back block and blind-sided peal-back blocks where the defender is definitely considered "defenseless".

Both of which have been made illegal. Now that cap is no longer playing I am sure he is willing to see DLs cried for life for the sake of his enjoyment of old times football. For me, I welcome rules changes that make the game.safer and keep the best players on the field. Using the legal tackling technique that could have been a great legal hit without the risk of the ClemSIN kid a quadriplegic for the rest of his life.

[Hairy Lime]

Head down, crown of the helmet deej, from any angle. It is a penalty if the hit had been to Fields's belly or side.

[Hairy Lime]

You may want targeting enforced but you do not seem to understand what the penalty was in this case.

[Hairy Lime]

I was not expecting this:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30662122/clemson-tigers-qb-trevor-lawrence-likely-no-1-overall-pick-enters-nfl-draft

When I was still living in SE Michigan I went to Greektown in Detroit with my girlfriend. As we walked the street, we saw a couple walking in our direction, closely followed by an old woman, waving her cane in the air, shouting at them. We stopped into a bakery for bread and baklava and when we came out, the same old woman was headed the other way, following nobody, waving her cane in the air and shouting the same things.

Which is.to let you know deej that when you delete your posts you make me feel like her.

[CaptainCargo]

A few observations even though Banks and Cap have okie dokied and move on....

Tackling technique has changed over the years (along with face mask design, and yes, they are connected).  Sticking your face mask into the sternum of the QB as he throws was very popular.
But that technique was not recommended for bringing down a 240 lb  fullback with a head of steam and his head lowered to ram anyone in his path. (More on that running back head butt later). Little scat-back types could be hit high with great success. 
The head in front of the runner and wrapping up both legs was very effective when tackling from the side angle.  And for awhile some Coaches advocated the rodeo tackle with shooting for one leg and lifting.  This technique was favored by the wrestling coaches bidding their Time until winter sports were in season.
Using the helmet as a weapon was used by both runners and tacklers.  I always wore shoulder pads that fit close to the neck and could position my helmet to brace against the pads for ranming
when necessary.
Spearing was against the rules, but not enforced with much enthusiasm by officials.  The most common case of spearing was driving your helmet into a runner who was down or almost down on the ground before the whistle blew.  DB's and Safeties were the main culprits.   Certain college teams made this their MO in the Intimidation game. 

Now the play in discussion....lets suppose that the Clemson LB keeps his head up and the BuckNut
QB rams the crown of his helmet into the defender, is that targeting?  Of course not.
I am and have been in favor of the targeting rule from the get-go, but this was not the situation
the rule makers had in mind, IMO, when they with the best of intentions implemented this rule
for the safety of the players.   

Don't know who the replay official was, but I have seen many similar hits since this rule was added
that have not led to an ejection.

Okie Dokie!

To clarify, the ClemSIN player lead with the crown of his helmet. That is targeting. It is ways targeting, offense or defense, defenseless or not. And regardless of what the targeted player is doing - Fields was trying to get a couple more yards to get a first down. If the kid goes in any other way than head down, crown first, there is no penalty. There are times, particularly with helmet to helmet contact, when you can empathize with a defensive player who gets caught by a player ducking his head, but this one was clearly illegal under a circumstances and an easy hit to avoid. I have never seen a crown of the helmet not called by replay, if it was missed on the field (as this one was).

I am loathe to get back into this but...watch a few hundred tackles of that type. Tell me how many you think will be with the defensive players "head down". You'll find a large percentage are. If you miscalculate as a tackler you hit them with your helmet and not your shoulder. Put your head up too far and watch "your" neck get snapped if you miscalculate. So yeah at the last second often it is head down. Simple human instinct.

Unfortunately a person's head is on the top of their body. It's not nearly as simple and cut and dried as nonplayers think it is. Hundreds of head down tackles occur every week.(thousands when all divisions were playing) It is tackling.

[kidcarter8]

Your neck doesnt get snapped back if you are using the crown and "miscalculate".  With head UP - yes.  (let padded helmets and neck rolls be your friend)

The rule is there for very good reason

[CaptainCargo]

That seemed all too easy.

OSU player pulling a cheap ankle twisting. LOL