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[josh]

I would like to use this space to discuss issues more thoroughly and with zero personal attacks.

My hope is for us to explore questions like "how do we establish that X behavior exists?" and "given that X behavior exists, what are its underlying causes," then finally with it, "is it possible to alleviate X behavior, even if we cannot eliminate it, and if so how might we do it? what would not work and what seems to have worked, elsewhere, if anywhere?"

I'm thinking of items like the death penalty, types and levels of taxation (if any), abortion/abortion bans, separation of church and state vs. state religion, racism in society (ours and others), other forms of prejudice, public education (pre-k through post-graduate, including technical), etc.

Opinions are welcome, especially when fleshed out and supported by facts.

But "lol" is not an opinion. Nor is "you should read what you wrote." Similarly, "all you do is lie, deny, and obfuscate" is not permitted.

That kind of response will be deleted the first time. The poster(s) of such things will be given a warning the 2nd time. And they will be suspended for a week the third time.

Thoughts, reactions, ideas?

Any serious questions?

[carlos123]

The death penalty, like torture, is a horror, not matter how it's executed.
I don't know that abolishing both needs to be fleshed out. Should  be self-evident to any decent human being.
Thankfully, it will be used less often after January 20th.
Abolition? I hope we will follow Western Europe. Abolished many years ago, and nobody seems to miss it.

[Hamilton Samuels]

The death penalty has its place. There are truly evil, unrepentant humans who forfeit their right to be kept alive.

I'm sure you can think of some who have deserved that penalty.





However,

[carlos123]

The death penalty has its place. There are truly evil, unrepentant humans who forfeit their right to be kept alive.

I'm sure you can think of some who have deserved that penalty.





However,

That's what life without parole is for.

[barton]

I had some Quaker friends who had a useful conundrum on the matter,  something like "Why would our society kill people in order to teach that it is wrong to kill people? "

I would add that, in case of a wrongful conviction coming to light,  it is very difficult to resurrect those executed to give them the happy news.  I'm with Justice Harry Blackmun on this being a real problem.

[facilitatorn]

Barton, you have the two key prongs.

Sure I’d love to see dribbling don, Jared, Ivanka, Steve Miller, mnuchin, Wolf, Mitch, desantis, and several others torn apart by teams of horses then pissed on in their several parts before they are burned on a pyre as an act of national purification, but I’m glad to live in a country that won’t do that despite the fact that it is exactly what they deserve.

[josh]

To the best of my knowledge, while the US has had 10 "executed but possibly innocent" instances, we have had none in which conclusive evidence has been presented to a court of law and a judge has determined that they were innocent.

OTOH, more than 20 death row inmates have been freed upon determination of their innocence by DNA evidence and some more by prosecutorial misconduct or innocence-based pardons and other such causes.

We have killed a number of individuals with mental disabilities, which is certainly questionable practice.

But what are the arguments for the death penalty vs. life in prison?

"He deserved it" seems a pretty common one. "Deterrent effect" is another. "Justice for the victim or the victim's family" is a third. And "saves money" often comes along, as well.

The deterrent argument ought to be fairly easily illustrated (pro or con) at this point, I would think. Ditto the "saves money," though I shudder to think that that would be a valid reason.

The other two are kind of tough arguments to make on something quantitative, I would say. Anybody disagree with that?

[josh]

The death penalty, like torture, is a horror, not matter how it's executed.
I don't know that abolishing both needs to be fleshed out. Should  be self-evident to any decent human being.

It seems that way to me, too, Carlos!

But... we have not always been in the majority on that and, indeed, we may not be now!

I confess to being confused:

According to the Gallup Poll in 2019, 55-56% of Americans favored the death penalty for murderers, while 42-43% opposed it (and 2% held no opinion).
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx

But according to the Gallup Poll in 2019, 60% of Americans favored life imprisonment for murderers, while 36% preferred the death penalty!
https://news.gallup.com/poll/268514/americans-support-life-prison-death-penalty.aspx

The first link has the 2nd link's information in it, along with a lot more, such as why one might prefer the death penalty, though nothing more recent on that than 2014, with An Eye for An Eye the big winner.

[kidcarter8]

Re:  death penalty vs life w/o parole

There ARE murders committed from prison - demanded by hard core killers serving time - of underlings on the outside

The "one innocent life taken" does work both ways - and is right as a negative point in both ways

The argument is probably more linked to deterrent vs non, cost and overall societal benefit, even given the fact there could be a mistake made (see Eastwood's True Blood)

DNA helps, of course - less mistakes now than at other points in time - and that will continue to get better and better

Upping our positive use of resources - in order to get it right first time, every time - is the preferred goal. 

[josh]

Re:  death penalty vs life w/o parole

There ARE murders committed from prison - demanded by hard core killers serving time - of underlings on the outside

Any idea how many of those there have been, Kid? Or do you know a good resource that we could look at for it?

Thanks!

[bodiddley]

I could be in favor of executing a limited subset of murderers who commit especially depraved (or mass) murders, as long as there is close to zero doubt they did it.  Such as being caught at the scene as in the case of Dylan Roof the church assassin.  Or of there is substantial and uncontradicted physical evidence.

You could even make it part of the sentence that they get 10 years in jail for appeals and such before their execution date.  And have a review board that makes sure that guilt is not in doubt.

A big problem with the system as it is, is that it's poor and poorly educated and minorities who get the death penalty.  Often legal counsel was inept -- there have been death penalty cases where the attorney never handled such a case before, where the lawyer slept through parts of the trial etc.  If the person is clearly guilty or the evidence so stacked against them, any competent lawyer will plea bargain and get their client a long prison term instead of exposing them to the death penalty.  Related, if the lawyer fails to bring up some objections or introduce some evidence into trial, that often precludes any appeals on those grounds.  So the system as it is punishes the poor with inept or inexperienced counsel.

And there are racial issues as well.  Studies have shown that killing a white person leads to more death penalty convictions.  That black defendants get the death penalty more than whites.  That juries without blacks vote for the death penalty for black defendants more, etc.  I assume death penalty is sought more for black defendants and white victims as well.

So given the realities of poor counsel and a weak public defender system, plus the inherent racism in the US criminal justice I find it very hard to practically implement a fair and mistake free death penalty regime.  As it stands it's generally poor and poorly educated minorities who get the death penalty.  For most defendants, it's not too difficult to plea bargain and/or argue mitigating factors and avoid such.

Then there's also issues of mental competency and youth.
A can of worms all around.

At least under the current regime the death penalty is fairly rare, takes around 20 years for a sentence to be carried out -- but I don't think anyone would argue that it's fair and mistake free.

[kidcarter8]

Re:  death penalty vs life w/o parole

There ARE murders committed from prison - demanded by hard core killers serving time - of underlings on the outside

Any idea how many of those there have been, Kid? Or do you know a good resource that we could look at for it?

Thanks!

I figure this space to be more essay than back and forth.  So I will pass, thanks.  Feel free to offer commentary on what I posted - I surely will read it.

[josh]

Re:  death penalty vs life w/o parole

There ARE murders committed from prison - demanded by hard core killers serving time - of underlings on the outside

Any idea how many of those there have been, Kid? Or do you know a good resource that we could look at for it?

Thanks!

I figure this space to be more essay than back and forth.  So I will pass, thanks.  Feel free to offer commentary on what I posted - I surely will read it.

My apologies, Kid. I thought I had been clear, when I wrote "Opinions are welcome, especially when fleshed out and supported by facts."

Your opinion is welcome - I just thought that you might have a source in mind that had informed your opinion. I will wander in search of it, myself.

I don't feel equipped to comment on that part of what you said without some stats. I'll write in response to other parts tomorrow.

Thank you for your post.

[facilitatorn]

There are some people who will probably never stop committing crimes, no matter how securely they are segregated during their incarceration, so long as they draw breath. The trumps and the trump in-laws are the most prominent examples of people like this. Executing would be fascist autocrats would be the closest thing to justifying an exception to a ban on the death penalty.

If we’re gonna do it, we should use a firing squad or flamethrowers to make it loud and vividly messy and painful.

[josh]

There are some people who will probably never stop committing crimes, no matter how securely they are segregated during their incarceration, so long as they draw breath. The trumps and the trump in-laws are the most prominent examples of people like this. Executing would be fascist autocrats would be the closest thing to justifying an exception to a ban on the death penalty.

If we’re gonna do it, we should use a firing squad or flamethrowers to make it loud and vividly messy and painful.

For deterrence?

Or for some other reason?