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Author Topic: Upon Deeper Consideration  (Read 23639 times)

Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2020, 03:29:38 PM »

So, carlos, you must be happy for this guy, who 100 percent guilty of premeditated murder, whereas I consider him having forfeited his existence on the planet permanently.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-22/far-right-terrorist-sentenced-life-jail-halle-synagogue-attack/13005526

And he can get out in 15 years, potentially.

Tell me, does that work for you?

Carlos was pretty clear: "life without parole."

It's okay to let others answer their own questions, Professor.

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josh

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2020, 05:12:44 PM »

So, carlos, you must be happy for this guy, who 100 percent guilty of premeditated murder, whereas I consider him having forfeited his existence on the planet permanently.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-22/far-right-terrorist-sentenced-life-jail-halle-synagogue-attack/13005526

And he can get out in 15 years, potentially.

Tell me, does that work for you?

Carlos was pretty clear: "life without parole."

It's okay to let others answer their own questions, Professor.

He had.

You ignored it.

And this is a group discussion, Ham. When one of us has an answer for a question about what another poster has said, providing it as a quote is reasonable. I'm sorry that that seems to bother you.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

josh

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2020, 05:24:09 PM »

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-convince-someone-when-facts-fail

How to convince someone when facts fail

Not from this year, but no less valid.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2020, 05:28:16 PM »

Moving on from Professor Josh's Lecture on why one must tow the party line...

THIS is a serious problem. The Chinese had their Cultural Revolution. There is no need to destroy the good names of others in pursuit of any public policy.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/abe-lincoln-was-a-hero-now-hes-a-bad-guy-in-some-sf-education-circles/ar-BB1bUNoA

To many, Abraham Lincoln was one of the country’s greatest presidents, the Great Emancipator, a beloved historic figure as well as political mentor to his successors, including Barack Obama, who used the Lincoln Bible for his inauguration.

Yet the renaming of Lincoln High School was a slam dunk for the committee, which didn’t even discuss it, according to video of the meetings.

The members of the committee, appointed by the school board, deemed whether a person’s actions or beliefs met the criteria for renaming, and moved on. The committee’s spreadsheet with notes on their research listed the federal treatment of Native Americans during his administration as the reason.

“The discussion for Lincoln centered around his treatment of First Nation peoples, because that was offered first,” Jeffries said. “Once he met criteria in that way, we did not belabor the point.”

Jeffries, however, said the narrative of Lincoln’s legacy is false.

Regardless of the pop culture myths of Lincoln and his motivations, the Civil War was not fought over slavery or the liberation of Black people, he said.

“The history of Lincoln and Native Americans is complicated, not nearly as well known as that of the Civil War and slavery,” he said. “Lincoln, like the presidents before him and most after, did not show through policy or rhetoric that Black lives ever mattered to them outside of human capital and as casualties of wealth building.”

Others disagree.

“He saved the country from dividing and ruin,” said Harold Holzer, a Lincoln scholar and director of Hunter College’s Roosevelt House Public Policy Institute. “He should be honored for it.”

Lincoln’s involvement with Native Americans is even trickier to unravel.

Lincoln’s administration supported the Homestead Act of 1862 and the transcontinental railroad, which led to the loss of Indigenous peoples’ land. Lincoln himself largely delegated the sometimes bloody response to Native American conflicts while focusing on the Civil War, according to historians.

But Lincoln, whose grandfather was killed by a Native American, oversaw the hanging of 38 Indigenous warriors after a Santee Sioux uprising in Minnesota, but only after he personally reviewed the legal cases against the 303 men sentenced to death. He saved the lives of 265 Indigenous men.

Lincoln, historians say, was focused on the Civil War and therefore did little to change policies related to Native Americans, but had planned to.

“If we get through the war and I live, this Indian system will be reformed,” he said. He never got the chance.

“He was more progressive than most people,” Holzer said. “There was pretty rampant hostility (toward Native Americans) and I think Lincoln rose above it.

“Nobody is going to pass 21st century mores if you’re looking at the 18th and 19th centuries.”


More on Mr. Jefferies: https://sfbayview.com/2019/10/bay-view-voters-guide-endorses-jeremiahs-social-justice-voter-guide-for-san-franciscos-nov-5-election/

Regarding his tree metaphor, this is some kind of special nut.
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bodiddley

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2020, 08:53:28 PM »

Bo, like I said before, we like to think we're better than they are.

We are of course a world better than a murderer.
While both involve ending a life, imo it's fatuous to compare the death penalty to a homicide.

We have a fair and open criminal trial, access to an attorney, appeals, a pretty extensive judicial process to determine guilt.  And a societal deliberation on what the punishment is for premeditated murder.  I don't think that's at all the same as somebody raping and killing or some other Murder One.  these are not innocent victims, and the decision to end their life is carefully deliberated.

Also plenty of killers are 100% guilty.  As when you start digging up young boys bodies on Bundy's lawn, or catch a killer after a shootout, or all the DNA evidence makes it clear.

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carlos123

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Death penalty
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2020, 10:19:49 PM »

So, carlos, you must be happy for this guy, who 100 percent guilty of premeditated murder, whereas I consider him having forfeited his existence on the planet permanently.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-22/far-right-terrorist-sentenced-life-jail-halle-synagogue-attack/13005526

And he can get out in 15 years, potentially.

Tell me, does that work for you?

Carlos was pretty clear: "life without parole."

It's okay to let others answer their own questions, Professor.

He had.

You ignored it.

And this is a group discussion, Ham. When one of us has an answer for a question about what another poster has said, providing it as a quote is reasonable. I'm sorry that that seems to bother you.

Thank you Josh.
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carlos123

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2020, 10:24:21 PM »

Bo, like I said before, we like to think we're better than they are.

We are of course a world better than a murderer.
While both involve ending a life, imo it's fatuous to compare the death penalty to a homicide.

We have a fair and open criminal trial, access to an attorney, appeals, a pretty extensive judicial process to determine guilt.  And a societal deliberation on what the punishment is for premeditated murder.  I don't think that's at all the same as somebody raping and killing or some other Murder One.  these are not innocent victims, and the decision to end their life is carefully deliberated.

Also plenty of killers are 100% guilty.  As when you start digging up young boys bodies on Bundy's lawn, or catch a killer after a shootout, or all the DNA evidence makes it clear.

Bo, that was not my only argument, though I still see the similarity between death penalty and homicide, i. e., both involve death by violence.

The other arguments were

Quote
Because killing another human (like torturing any other living thing) is always wrong.

Justice for the victim and their family? How about revenge in her name? She's not coming back. best we can do is make sure the perpetrator can't do it again.

Deterrence? According to most research, it doesn't work that way. Many murderers prefer death to life behind bars.
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"I am your warrior and, if you feel you have been wronged or betrayed, I am your retribution, oh yes, your retribution."
- Putin's bitch at CPAC 2023

"Those Hispanics are funny, and they speak really funny"
- Bo Zizzley&Chip Stern

- Prayers for Chamaco Cartero -

- BAN THE AR15-
- Chamaco Cartero

bodiddley

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Re: Death penalty
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2020, 04:32:12 AM »

Bo, that was not my only argument, though I still see the similarity between death penalty and homicide, i. e., both involve death by violence].

It's clearly a different level of violence.  Injecting a chemical that sedates one out is rather different than the way their victims often die.  I'm not sure I'd really count that as violent, but death takes some effort to achieve.  Plus the perp gets to prepare for his death, put affairs in order, often has family members or religious counsel nearby.  Yes, it's death but they do try to make it relatively gentle.

Quote
The other arguments were

Because killing another human (like torturing any other living thing) is always wrong.

I could advocate that racial discrimination is always wrong.  But used to remedy past discrimination (ie affirmative action) it can be a positive.  That's the context with the death penalty, as a remedy/punishment against past (extreme) bad behavior.

And beyond torturing, I believe simply any intentional killing of animals is wrong.
I'm a pretty hard core vegetarian.  Even cockroaches and other bugs I try to catch and let outside (actually I found the trick is to find the cockroach egg sacs, which I put outside).  I do kill mosquitoes, who are after my very own lifeblood and fuck with my sleep (I'm allergic to their anti-coagulants).

Quote
Justice for the victim and their family? How about revenge in her name? She's not coming back. best we can do is make sure the perpetrator can't do it again.

Death penalty and eye-for-an-eye justice has a long tradition throughout human societies.  Maybe it's partly the simple symmetry which appeals to notions of fairness.

Further, families of murder victims frequently say that the execution of the killer provides a sense of closure and justice.  Also, when family members are against the death penalty, that should be taken into consideration. 

It's too easy to focus on the killer and his rights since he is alive and the victim is long gone.  But there is a fundamental unfairness between the killer who gets to live another 20 - 50 years of his life, albeit in prison, sharing family milestones and voting Democratic and eating food and reading books and living.  While their victim, had their life and future snuffed out.  Really that unfairness seems to me one of the strongest arguments in favor of capital punishment.  And you can build in an automatic 10 year period from death sentence to execution, to allow for appeals, new evidence, etc -- which is already the de facto system.  The killer getting 10 years more of life than their victim isn't at all fair, but provides some balance and a chance to correct any possible injustice.

Quote
Deterrence? According to most research, it doesn't work that way. Many murderers prefer death to life behind bars.

Suicide-bent killers are a big problem.  Usually folks care what happens to themselves and won't put their lives in jeopardy.  Murderers are often young people, not that well educated, have violent or neglectful backgrounds and don't think much of the consequences.  Ie hard to deter.  In those/most cases deterrence won't work.  Prison in America is such a violent and unpleasant experience, life in jail doesn't sound much better than death.  And still our violent max security prisons don't seem to provide much deterrence.  So deterrence likely remains mostly theoretical.
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bodiddley

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2020, 04:41:30 AM »

I'm not actually for or against the death penalty.  I just think if it is to be used it should be limited to heinous, intentional murders (multiple killings, depraved behavior, aggravating circumstances  -- maybe rape or torture).  And there should be no doubt of guilt and legal representation should be adequate.  And racial bias can't be allowed in.

Unfortunately I think that's difficult for our society to achieve, or we don't have the will to meet those conditions.  So for me, the system is unlikely to be fair and equal.
And I'd limit it to so few executions -- maybe similar to how it is these days in practice -- that the whole process/procedure isn't worth having. 

Unfortunately, the way the US is going down the toilet, and economic inequality is widening, and guns are more prevalent, incivility rampant, and violence more accepted throughout our culture, I can't see the murder rate dropping in the future.  Maybe this CV year provided some reprieve as potential victims stayed home more.
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2020, 07:15:50 AM »

I'm not actually for or against the death penalty.  I just think if it is to be used it should be limited to heinous, intentional murders (multiple killings, depraved behavior, aggravating circumstances  -- maybe rape or torture).  And there should be no doubt of guilt and legal representation should be adequate.  And racial bias can't be allowed in.

Unfortunately I think that's difficult for our society to achieve, or we don't have the will to meet those conditions.  So for me, the system is unlikely to be fair and equal.
And I'd limit it to so few executions -- maybe similar to how it is these days in practice -- that the whole process/procedure isn't worth having. 

Unfortunately, the way the US is going down the toilet, and economic inequality is widening, and guns are more prevalent, incivility rampant, and violence more accepted throughout our culture, I can't see the murder rate dropping in the future.  Maybe this CV year provided some reprieve as potential victims stayed home more.

Sorry, Bo. The zealots don't do nuanced opinions like yours.


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The artist's job is not to succumb to despair but to find an antidote for the emptiness of existence.

bodiddley

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2020, 08:15:56 AM »

A younger Bo was opposed to the death penalty on the simple basis that the state shouldn't have the power to kill, the power of life or death over its citizens.  A nice bright line rule.  But later I realized that the State has the power to wage war and compel citizens to participate, to force its people to kill or be killed.  And actually plenty of gov't decisions and our economic system result in deaths (tens of thousands starve to death in America each year; homeless freeze on the streets, etc).

Of course, war should be illegal.  And wartime killing should be considered manslaughter.  And there should be penalties for starting/fighting a war.
Genuine defensive warfare could be permitted to counter aggressive warfare.
But those who start war should be punished (death penalty?)
War is destructive mass murder and always harms huge numbers of civilians and ruins lives and leads to sundry other crimes (rapes, torture, etc.).



Quote
And I'd limit it to so few executions -- maybe similar to how it is these days in practice -- that the whole process/procedure isn't worth having.

I meant to write:

limit it so . . . that perhaps the whole process is not worth having.
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josh

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UDC - What separates humans from (other) animals, besides...
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2020, 12:26:02 PM »

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/young-ravens-rival-adult-chimps-in-a-big-test-of-general-intelligence/

What separates humans from (other) animals, besides the urge to prove that we are different from (other) animals?!
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

barton

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2020, 06:30:53 PM »

I held off on the DP chat,  not realizing it would conclude so soon.   If I may, I'll just add that I also grew away from what Bo called a "clear bright line" position.   My main problem remains with its capricious application.  No doubt there are clearcut cases of such depravity that it is a merciful act,  both for the killer and for the victim's loved ones,  to end the killer's life.   I remain opposed to societies getting into the vengeance business.   Vengeance seems to reduce us.



Animals and Humans differences

Seems to be a matter of degree,  rather than of kind.   Some animals have simple language and gestural signals, but humans (with their high cephalization ratio) (brain size in proportion to body size) have developed complex and abstract symbol systems that allow accumulation of knowledge and techniques.   

Humans and some higher mammals,  and maybe some avians,  do share some form of consciousness that could be called self-awareness.  That is,  we and such species share something beyond just feeling and reacting:  a sense that we exist as distinct beings.  And that others do,  too.   Higher mammals, especially social mammals,  have something that ethologists (animal behaviorists) call "a theory of mind, " which is the awareness that other individuals have intentions,  desires,  etc.   And that these inner states of mind may be similar to theirs.   (in autism,  this awareness is somewhat reduced,  severely hampering social interactions)

Well,  that's a couple areas where we see some separation,  but mainly by degree rather than some supernatural boundary line.  Later.   
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bodiddley

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Re: Upon Deeper Consideration
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2020, 01:27:11 AM »

I should also add that police with their guns and freedom to use them also represent state power of life and death.
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josh

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UDC - "Tocqueville, Democracy, and Religion," a lecture
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2020, 01:52:19 AM »

I thought that some of us would find this lecture on Tocqueville, Democracy, and Religion interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCOrhokHZyI

Professor Kahan is speaking "at" the Benson Center for the Study of Western Civilization, known as a conservative institution. Kahan is not necessarily at the center of their political leanings - I think you will find this purely scholarly -- not objective, but also not trying to score points.

He starts at about 6:30 into the recording and runs a bit more than an hour.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham
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