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When do yo think the MLB regular season will start?

On time
- 1 (33.3%)
Late, but on or before April 15th
- 0 (0%)
April 16th through April 30th
- 0 (0%)
May 1st through May 15th
- 2 (66.7%)
May 16th through May 31st
- 0 (0%)
Jun1st through June 15th
- 0 (0%)
June 16th through June 30th
- 0 (0%)
After June 30th
- 0 (0%)
No Season
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: February 13, 2022, 10:41:25 PM


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Author Topic: Major League Baseball  (Read 295626 times)

Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3960 on: December 30, 2020, 12:04:16 PM »

The case for Moyer is about the artistry. He was a man pitching on both sides of the plate, hitting his spots as a lefty with mystifying change of speed, and without the gift of a power arm or a knuckleball. And he did it with aplomb, without the egocentric nature that is attached to so many starting pitchers, or pitchers who have won as many games as he did. He won games in both leagues.

He won games in 4 different decades---from the decadent 80's through the cheating 90's and the contentious '00's, to the '10's. He won 269 games, and 200 of them after the age of 33.

If he were a wine, he'd be the unappreciated petite syrah, an exceptionally rare grape with less than 10,000 planted acres worldwide. In an era in a world that only thinks of cabernet, the petite syrah, like Moyer, has been seriously overlooked.

Why? Because only those who truly understand how difficult it is to pitch in Major League Baseball for 25 years and never have overpowering stuff, yet put up 269 wins pitching for 9 different teams. Only someone who truly gets what pitching to contact means, instead of attempting to strike out every batter who comes to the plate ("Strikeouts are fascist!"---Crash Davis), understands the greatness of a pitcher like Moyer. Just like only someone who is a true oenophile appreciates the complex richness of petite syrah.

There are stories in baseball that are not told by stats alone, which makes it difficult for so many who may be able to talk a good game, but may not be able to see what has always been in front of them. This was a guy who was out of baseball by 1992, having pitched only 6 seasons at the major league level. But he later had 20 win seasons, made an AS team, and more---but he was never anyone that people paid money to see. Why? Because he wasn't cabernet sauvignon. You want steak, that's what you drink, and face it, most fans don't know anything about what to pair with polenta and sausage, or chile, or cassoulet---try the petite syrah, folks, because it pairs perfectly.

Moyer holds the record for the oldest pitcher to toss a shutout, which he did when he was 47, against the Braves.
 
"At the time of his final game, he was the oldest player in the major leagues and had the most wins, losses, and strikeouts of any active MLB pitcher."



 

He never threw hard, and he mixed his pitches: a sinker, a cut fastball, a slider, a changeup, and a curveball. That changeup averages in the 60's, and his fastball ran only around 82mph. "A player once described Moyer's repertoire as "throwing feathers'' while Colorado's Jason Giambi says, 'You don't think the ball can stay in the air that long.'''


"Moyer has received numerous awards for philanthropy and community service, including the 2003 Roberto Clemente Award, the 2003 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award, the 2003 Hutch Award, and the 2004 Branch Rickey Award. Moyer is one of only 29 players in baseball history to date to have appeared in MLB games in four decades. At the time of his retirement, Moyer had faced 8.9% of all MLB hitters ever."

You see, character counts. At least it is supposed to count, according to the Hall of Fame. "Rule 5, which says, 'voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played ("BBWAA Election Rules," n.d.)' turns out to be the most relevant topic to the thesis.

    'It was only when it was realized by the Cooperstown guardians that there was a great danger (Pete) Rose (Appendix A) might be elected to the Hall while banned from baseball that the rules were amended (in 1989) (Vass, 2008)” to include “Rule 3 (E). Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.'”

So, "character counts", when the writers, who by participating in this exercies are creating news, not reporting it, when one wishes to exclude Clemons, Bonds, Rose, etc...But will it count towards INCLUSION of someone like Moyer or Kaat(whose case is a total mystery, unlike Moyer's)? No. Will "Rule 5" be applied to Curt "Qanon is real, and where's the camera and microphone for my next xenophobic utterance" Schilling?




The one thing about the petite syrah comparison to Moyer that fails? It doesn't truly age so well. So, if you have it, drink it in---just like when you see a rare player over 4 different decades of MLB, drink it in.


As for Kaat. Well, I see no one here has put up a good argument to explain why a player like him is excluded from Cooperstown: 25 seasons, 283 wins, 3.45 ERA career, 4,530 IP, one season in which he one out shy of 305 IP, and 14 seasons with 200 IP, and 14 Gold gloves.

His reward from the voters for the Hall? He never received more than 27.3% of the vote.

Kaat is a GSM (Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvedre blend), a Rasteau GSM, at that, which pairs with so many delightful foods, and never disappoints.

Except for baseball writers, who drink Two Buck Chuck, it seems.




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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3961 on: December 30, 2020, 12:19:01 PM »

Jim Kaat was a pretty good pitcher, but not a great one, and IMO a borderline HoF guy. I could see him getting in eventually on the veteran's committee vote.

He was a better pitcher than Moyer. and a pretty good color guy.

I'd lean for Kaat for HoF, I'd definitely vote Moyer for Hall of Old.
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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3962 on: December 30, 2020, 12:34:18 PM »

And when I think of baseball scribes drinking, the image that comes to mind is a dim-lit dive and with shots and beers. Not merlots, syrahs or cabs.

well maybe the one they are too drunk to hail after last call.

Hey Charlie, another round.

Wild Turkey pair well with a 3-2 extra inning nail-biter home town loss?

Or maybe a shot of Fireball, that SOB was bringing the heat tonight!

and Charlie pour one for yourself!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 12:36:14 PM by bankshot1 »
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3963 on: December 30, 2020, 03:10:12 PM »

And when I think of baseball scribes drinking, the image that comes to mind is a dim-lit dive and with shots and beers. Not merlots, syrahs or cabs.

well maybe the one they are too drunk to hail after last call.

Hey Charlie, another round.

Wild Turkey pair well with a 3-2 extra inning nail-biter home town loss?

Or maybe a shot of Fireball, that SOB was bringing the heat tonight!

and Charlie pour one for yourself!

EXACTLY!

 Most don't have the level of intelligence to see what real pitching is.

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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3964 on: December 30, 2020, 03:36:30 PM »

Forgetting the HOF talk, for now.

If you're a GM, and you could sign either one of these guys (two began their MLB careers at age 20, one at 19), and you get them for their entire career, and you know the following , which one do you sign? What values to use to determine and or justify that signing?

PITCHER 1 SUMMARY
Career


219 W  100 L  ERA 2.93  476 G   409 STARTS   2827.1 IP 3154K and a WHIP 1.054


 

PITCHER 2 SUMMARY
Career


283 W    237L   ERA 3.45. 898G. 625 STARTS. 4530.1 IP   2461 K and a  WHIP 1.259
 

PITCHER 3
SUMMARY
Career

165 W 87L. ERA 2.76 in 397G with 314 STARTS. 2324.1 IP. 2396 K. WHIP 1.106
 






 

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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3965 on: December 30, 2020, 06:27:04 PM »

probably Pedro

then Koufax

Pedro because of his relative longevity and excellence

YMMV
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Hairy Lime

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3966 on: December 30, 2020, 06:40:41 PM »

Yeah, give me those two. I can find a Jamie Moyer later.
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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3967 on: December 30, 2020, 06:54:40 PM »

Yeah, give me those two. I can find a Jamie Moyer later.

If he's doesn't have NYE plans, he can proably give you a couple of innings tomorrow.

btw, the 3rd guy in Utleys FMK, was Kaat.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3968 on: December 30, 2020, 10:45:47 PM »

Need the era.

Pitcher 1 - on face.

For instance on Kaat - his ERA+ was just 1.08

(For the record, Moyer 1.03, one of the slight edges JK gets)
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josh

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3969 on: December 31, 2020, 02:14:01 AM »

#1.

I will have 216 fewer starts with him than with #2, but I am pretty sure I can get better pitching than a record of 64w to 137 losses!

And 60% of the innings, but 28% more strikeouts? Lower WHIP? Why is this a question?!

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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3970 on: December 31, 2020, 06:57:19 AM »

probably Pedro

then Koufax

Pedro because of his relative longevity and excellence

YMMV

See? You couldn't do it. You had to go look up WHO the stats were from. And not sure how "relative longevity" comes from Pedro?
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3971 on: December 31, 2020, 06:58:36 AM »

Yeah, give me those two. I can find a Jamie Moyer later.

If he's doesn't have NYE plans, he can proably give you a couple of innings tomorrow.

btw, the 3rd guy in Utleys FMK, was Kaat.

BTW, you're an asshole for not letting others decide to examine a query without you fucking up the intentional anonymity.

Douche.
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3972 on: December 31, 2020, 07:06:00 AM »

Need the era.

Pitcher 1 - on face.

For instance on Kaat - his ERA+ was just 1.08

(For the record, Moyer 1.03, one of the slight edges JK gets)


Well, thanks to asswipe Banks, you know the eras.

I think I take the pitchers as they were ranked in the original question. I like value as a GM, and I get an innings eater for a long time with Pitcher 2 vs Pitcher 3. Pitcher 1 has enough longevity, and the best results over the first 18 years. I think Pitcher 3 is a horse that only gets you around the track a few times. Fast, but breaks down too soon.

Given the way pitchers are used today, however, who knows how these three pitchers would have turned out playing in today's game?
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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3973 on: December 31, 2020, 09:04:03 AM »

probably Pedro

then Koufax

Pedro because of his relative longevity and excellence

YMMV

See? You couldn't do it. You had to go look up WHO the stats were from. And not sure how "relative longevity" comes from Pedro?

HEH

Did what?

forget what I knew?

I didn't need to look up stats.

When you mention Kaat a couple of days ago I looked at his stats, so the 3 pitchers you decided to comp were known.

Its not my fault you suck at presenting a persuasive argument.

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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3974 on: December 31, 2020, 10:29:55 AM »

probably Pedro

then Koufax

Pedro because of his relative longevity and excellence

YMMV

See? You couldn't do it. You had to go look up WHO the stats were from. And not sure how "relative longevity" comes from Pedro?

HEH

Did what?

forget what I knew?

I didn't need to look up stats.

When you mention Kaat a couple of days ago I looked at his stats, so the 3 pitchers you decided to comp were known.

Its not my fault you suck at presenting a persuasive argument.



I didn't make an argument. I posed a question to the group.

Most would understand the difference between an argument and a question.

But you? Maybe not.

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