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Who will win Game 5 of the NBA Finals?

Warriors
- 1 (33.3%)
Celtics
- 2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM


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Author Topic: Knicks  (Read 1145075 times)

facilitatorn

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24705 on: August 27, 2022, 01:54:27 AM »

Two guys likely to cause problems when their play relative to their competitors at their positions on the team dictates that they sit.

You are projecting a dramatic decrease in minutes for Fournier AND Randle?   

Based on? 

When you have dinner with Thibs, who picks up the check?

Dolan. Please do not let him know.
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facilitatorn

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24706 on: August 27, 2022, 04:15:24 AM »

As to your other two questions, Chip

I think it is more likely than not that, given the two players respective games and the players we have to go around them, it will be easier to build successful units with Obi on the floor than Randle. If this is the case it is likely it is apparent in camp and further that it gets out. That would lead to drama, pressure, fractures, and wedges the team does not need while also moving his current perceived value from diminished to fire sake territory. Unless you think Randle would take a sixth man role and not get head casey about it. I could be wrong about this and Randle could confirm the established pecking order on his way to a blistering start. Thibs could name him captain and he could get back to ballin in private JR of two years ago. My feeling is it is heading the other way.

RJ shot .401 in the best distance shooting season of his short career. Grimes shot .381 as a rookie. Cam was shooting .379 with the Hawks before the trade and shot out of his mind in his only playoff run. That is the perspective I have looking at Evan shooting .389 for us last year. The younger three are better defenders with more effective floor games, more athleticism, and more room to grow.

That is why I think those two well compensated starters could and probably should lose minutes this season. Not because they are chopped liver, but because we have guys who though less experienced may have better games now. It would be a good problem to have should it be the case, but it would still be a problem that would need to be addressed. That is more true for Randle than Fournier based on their respective histories of handling setbacks and frustration. I do not see the outbursts from Randle as all behind him especially if things do not shape up the way he wants internally.

 
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chipstern

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24707 on: August 27, 2022, 08:46:07 AM »

As to your other two questions, Chip

I think it is more likely than not that, given the two players respective games and the players we have to go around them, it will be easier to build successful units with Obi on the floor than Randle. If this is the case it is likely it is apparent in camp and further that it gets out. That would lead to drama, pressure, fractures, and wedges the team does not need while also moving his current perceived value from diminished to fire sake territory. Unless you think Randle would take a sixth man role and not get head casey about it. I could be wrong about this and Randle could confirm the established pecking order on his way to a blistering start. Thibs could name him captain and he could get back to ballin in private JR of two years ago. My feeling is it is heading the other way.

RJ shot .401 in the best distance shooting season of his short career. Grimes shot .381 as a rookie. Cam was shooting .379 with the Hawks before the trade and shot out of his mind in his only playoff run. That is the perspective I have looking at Evan shooting .389 for us last year. The younger three are better defenders with more effective floor games, more athleticism, and more room to grow.

That is why I think those two well compensated starters could and probably should lose minutes this season. Not because they are chopped liver, but because we have guys who though less experienced may have better games now. It would be a good problem to have should it be the case, but it would still be a problem that would need to be addressed. That is more true for Randle than Fournier based on their respective histories of handling setbacks and frustration. I do not see the outbursts from Randle as all behind him especially if things do not shape up the way he wants internally.

Interesting take.

Remains to be seen if Thibs evolves significantly. 
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24708 on: August 27, 2022, 02:08:33 PM »

Two guys likely to cause problems when their play relative to their competitors at their positions on the team dictates that they sit.

You, sir - quite simply do not know basketball.
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elephant

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24709 on: August 27, 2022, 02:15:48 PM »

Julius is an alpha guy. He's not going to spend time on the bench. If he's here, you got to play him.

Now if the Knicks are playing well, I could see him playing a little less with the idea of keeping him healthy for playoffs, etc. Whatever. But punishing him with bench time? Come on.

I look forward to Fournier with Brunson. He will be getting better looks than he did last year, and the dude has a beautiful stoke. If Grimes can beat him out of a starting spot. Excellent. But he's going to have to ball.

BTW, RJ's 3-point shooting was around 34% last year, NOT 40%.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24710 on: August 27, 2022, 02:16:44 PM »

Heeeeere we goooooo..........

  Tim MacMahon, you said, I believe last week, that you thought that the Jazz would make a Donovan Mitchell trade before the opener. And it sounds to me in talking to people around the league that the Jazz want to try to go even sooner than that. They want to go before training camp

McMahon    It does sound as I talk to folks in the league that the Jazz are trying to apply the gas here. To try to juice the offer, especially juice the offer from the New York Knicks


https://nba.nbcsports.com/2022/08/26/report-jazz-want-to-apply-the-gas-to-get-donovan-mitchell-trade-done/
« Last Edit: August 27, 2022, 02:20:44 PM by kidcarter8 »
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24711 on: August 27, 2022, 02:23:24 PM »

Now if the Knicks are playing well, I could see him playing a little less with the idea of keeping him healthy for playoffs, etc. Whatever. But punishing him with bench time? Come on.


EXACTLY.

And expect some HUGE games from Julius as well, which will largely go  unnoticed here.

If he is producing mid season - and we stink -  and then you (Fac and any minions) want to trade him - lets talk.  But I dont expect that to be the case.
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chipstern

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Elephant Dance
« Reply #24712 on: August 27, 2022, 03:19:51 PM »

Julius is an alpha guy. He's not going to spend time on the bench. If he's here, you got to play him.

Now if the Knicks are playing well, I could see him playing a little less with the idea of keeping him healthy for playoffs, etc. Whatever. But punishing him with bench time? Come on.

I look forward to Fournier with Brunson. He will be getting better looks than he did last year, and the dude has a beautiful stoke. If Grimes can beat him out of a starting spot. Excellent. But he's going to have to ball.

BTW, RJ's 3-point shooting was around 34% last year, NOT 40%.

I believe that RJ was converting at something like 40% after the all-star break/trading deadline, which coincidentally, was also when IQ and Obi got religion.  RJ's start to the regular season was fraught with struggles. 

RJ raised his game in all areas post-break.  What got me excited, well, mildly exicted, was how in the final stanza of the season, RJ began making baskets in the midrange, 15 foot pullups off off the bounce, which would make his transition/NorthSouth game a million times more effective.  If this becomes a consistent reliable part of his overall game, he further raises the bar as a team leader and tone setter. 

My sense of Julius is that, yes, he can be moody, and he acted out his struggles in a way that was not well received, to put it mildly.  Again, NO POINT GAURD, and the league following the Hawks Playoffs Template for how to guard him. 

Julius is a proud man, and I see him being on a mission come training camp.  He needs to maker quicker more decisive decisions, and to prove that his 2020-21 three point shooting was not a one and done anomaly. 

RJ & Julius both possess significant facilitating skills, but tasking them with ruddering our offense in 2021-2022, took away from their offensive strengths. 

At the risk of disturbing the DoucheNozzle Known As KiidFarterCarter as per his CancelCulture Woke Wabbit WeAction To AintItaSHAMAN's referencing our point guard situation, well, my apologies, but having Jalen Brunson/Derrick Rose instead of Kemba Walker/Alec Burks will significantly impact JR & RJ by playing to their strengths.  MORE IMPORTANTLY, besides an appreciable skill set, both Jalen & Derrick bring...LEADERSHIP.  And THIS IS WHERE Julius and RJ will most benefit. 

ALSO, as per finding minutes for OBI, Toppin went into the summer saying how he and Julius had spoken about playing as a C-PF tandem, and they have been working out together.  Obviously, Thibs is going to be gun shy about small ball given what we would sacrifice on defense, but I do not view this as being insurmountable in certain situations. 

As for playing time, to keep Julius from being gassed at the end of games, I think a 30-18 split with Obi is prudent at PF, and that Thibs surely knows from how the season ended, that he needs to find another 7-10 minutes a night for Obi. 

Worth remembering that as a rookie, Obi had a really good dynamic with Rose, who often found him on back cuts along the base line. 

With Brunson & Rose, an uptick in point guard skills will obviously make things easier for those previously tasked with being point forwards, but also with catch and shoot types such as Fournier and Grimes, whose shooting is optimized by cleaner looks and a chance to shoot in rhythm with PGs drawing coverage, much as Julius and RJ drawing coverage can also benefit Evan and Quentin if our PF/SF combo makes quick, decisive reads and decisions.  Not to mention the potential Hartenstein has for drawing coverage out on the perimiter as a
Stretch5/4 type presence, and his gifts as a passer. 

Grimes has been working out with Penny Hardaway, and during summer league, he showed a predilection for creating off of the dribble, driving to the hoop and finding open men.  Hopeful signs.  Needs to become much more consistent on his trey. 

Might Quentin beat out Evan for the starting 2-guard role?  Evan as a sixth man is an outcome not to be sniffed down on. 

We have a long ways to go in an UberCompetitive Eastern Conference, but we have a lot of depth, a pair of significant PG Bell Cows to set the tone, and a year of shared failures and triumphs and learned lessons behind us.  We have all learned from our struggles. 

THIBS, too. 

Onwards.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2022, 04:20:59 PM by chipstern »
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facilitatorn

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24713 on: August 27, 2022, 05:03:13 PM »

I forgot RJ shot well on the back half of last season as well. He shot .401 from three over the entire season prior.

Fournier could be good and helpful as a bench sniper. I have no problem with him there as a modernized Steve Novak. He can handle that role at a high level.

I do not want to see Randle punished. I also do not want him rewarded for past results. I want him getting minutes if he outplays his competition. I do not think he can. Obi gives more focus and range defensively though neither guy is particularly good there and Obi creates easier opportunities without getting in his teammates way than Jules. I value that more than the 20, 10, and 5 Jules put up last year. If both are still here, we will see what Thibs thinks and see the fallout from that.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24714 on: August 27, 2022, 06:06:32 PM »

Re:  effective games... (for Barrett and others)

Basketball-reference does a great job with their "game score" statistic.

If you look  at a player's game log you can see the consistency/inconsistency of play by simple peering at game score column.  Also can see how many "over 15", "over 20" etc game scores for each guy with a little work.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24715 on: August 27, 2022, 11:40:59 PM »

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carlos123

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Q&A
« Reply #24716 on: August 28, 2022, 12:39:09 AM »

Q.

Remains to be seen if Thibs evolves significantly.

A.
NO


Not that it matters much if the deal offered (supposedly) by Knucks goes through, or something even worse if Danny has his evil way.
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elephant

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24718 on: August 28, 2022, 01:36:24 PM »

As to your other two questions, Chip

I think it is more likely than not that, given the two players respective games and the players we have to go around them, it will be easier to build successful units with Obi on the floor than Randle. If this is the case it is likely it is apparent in camp and further that it gets out. That would lead to drama, pressure, fractures, and wedges the team does not need while also moving his current perceived value from diminished to fire sake territory. Unless you think Randle would take a sixth man role and not get head casey about it. I could be wrong about this and Randle could confirm the established pecking order on his way to a blistering start. Thibs could name him captain and he could get back to ballin in private JR of two years ago. My feeling is it is heading the other way.

RJ shot .401 in the best distance shooting season of his short career. Grimes shot .381 as a rookie. Cam was shooting .379 with the Hawks before the trade and shot out of his mind in his only playoff run. That is the perspective I have looking at Evan shooting .389 for us last year. The younger three are better defenders with more effective floor games, more athleticism, and more room to grow.

That is why I think those two well compensated starters could and probably should lose minutes this season. Not because they are chopped liver, but because we have guys who though less experienced may have better games now. It would be a good problem to have should it be the case, but it would still be a problem that would need to be addressed. That is more true for Randle than Fournier based on their respective histories of handling setbacks and frustration. I do not see the outbursts from Randle as all behind him especially if things do not shape up the way he wants internally.

Interesting take.

Remains to be seen if Thibs evolves significantly.

Thib's "evolution."

Look, if he can't figure it out with Julius, he's going to lose his gig.

Randle's on-floor issues were partially the responsibility of the coach...and this year, Thibs will be held accountable.

On the other fronts, it would be great to see some signs of change. His approach on offense seems antiquated. At times, almost embarrassing. Every good team seemed to play a much quicker game than we did. And for a guy with a reputation for tough-nosed defense, where exactly was that last season?

Yes. Evolve. Or perish.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #24719 on: August 28, 2022, 01:47:28 PM »

It left town with Elfrid and Reggie?
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