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Warriors

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Celtics

2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM

[chipstern]

Again for those who aren't getting it:

The reason the Melo trade made sense at the time (and dealing the youth and picks) was because we had invested in Amare' who had a very short window even without hindsight.  Amare and a team on pups was not going to do much (especially when both Chandler and Gallinary had their own injury issues).

If we hadn't gone after Amare (Who was 'Plan D' after missing out on LeBron, Bosh, Wade et al) we would probably have not felt the urgency to make a swing for the fences deal with Melo.

So i trace the deals back to Donnie Walsh in 2008 coming in and not giving a fair deal to David Lee, saving and losing for two years to clear the books for the Summer of 2010 and then striking out, desperately signing Amare and putting the team on a short time frame.

Had he invested in DLEE and had the Knicks stayed away from starchasing in free agency we could've had a young team, the young core everyone was hoping not to trade away.  Once the die was cast with Amare instead of Lee the wheels were in motion to add a "second star"

Agree with you on Donnie and the David Lee trade in particular. 

There was this narrative which held that he was not worth the FA dollars and put up empty stats. 

Right.  His final year he was good for 20-10 a night.  And we got back GARBAGE. 

PS: BoD points out that Chandler and Gallo had trouble staying healthy, and this is a fact.  However, how many years later than they are still effective players when healthy, and those two #1 picks and two #2 picks sure would've come in handy.  And of course, Amare's legs gave out, so....

[chipstern]

When you have a young team doing things you want a vet team to do and they are keeping their nose near the water line while trending up, I’d rather keep that rolling than tear it down for a mishmash of talent at a couple of positions and hoping you can hold it all together by adding from the cast off pile to fill it out. Giving it a year or two to figure it out would have been just as fun to watch and would have left us ready for the next starphuck crapshoot a year or two down the line, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Rose appears--APPEARS--to be gearing up for a slow approach to the runway.  Mills signed off on a huge scrum of vets, too many to accommodate, irrespective of their relative talent, and the logjam basically derailed the theoretical youth movement of Fizz's first season. 

I am fine with being patient with our youth and nurturing them going forward. 

Free agency is something of a mirage.  We have reeled in nothing but sloppy seconds for as long back as I can remember. 

Reading in the POST (naturally) about how we might have sudered our chances at Giannis...well, that's a non-starter.  They have a good coach, a good system and have constructed an effective roster about him.  He WAS NEVER COMING HERE, any more than Kawhi. 

Now, if I might be so bold, and proffer a marginally less implausible wet dream.  [NOTE: Fat Chance]

The 2019-2020 season was inclining towards a Lakers-Bucks finals. 

And while LeBron shows no signs of slowing down, he will be 36 come December 2020.

The Lakers assembled a veteran team about him designed to win NOW. 

ANTHONY DAVIS just turned 27 this past March.  I would expect him to pick up his player option for 2020-21.

In the summer of 2021 that makes him an unrestricted FA, with LeBron entering his $40 Million + Plus player option
decision that summer. 

Things that make you go....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[bodiddley]

Why were the Bulls eager/willing to ditch Eddy Curry?
I don't think Curry was that interested in basketball, except as a source of income and probably fame. 

Too bad we don't have the archives of this forum's past.
I'd like to see who was on board with Curry and what their arguments were.
I correctly surmised he would be a bum (he did manage to give us one pretty good year).  A low impact player.

[Kam]

We had a winning record, and a young team with good chemistry, chaired by our free agent Stoudamire, and a PG in Felton was peaking and having a career year. 

Stoudamire gave us half a season of MVP ball. That was fun.  The rest of his tenure was torture.  Punching the fire extinguisher?  Fucking bonehead cost us playoff games.  But Melo gets all the blame here for wanting what we happily gave to the uninsurable Amare.  Felton had a year or two left before he got too fat.  That pre-Melo squad had no legs.  It was a mirage. Chandler got hurt. Gallo got hurt.  Mozgov became an albatross.  It would've taken years before that miasma would have produced a playoff series win - if ever. 

[kiidcarter8]

Why were the Bulls eager/willing to ditch Eddy Curry?


Simple

They had 2 centers

They were not winning

They were YOUNG - and had backcourt scorers - dint want to be a slow down post up team

They were not winning

They needed a volume deal - bringing in more bodies than they sent out

They were NOT WINNING

(Bulls had 3 poor years with Curry/Chandler and stood at 26-23 when the deal wa made, behind rookies DuHon, Gordon and Deng.)

Chandler/Curry deals were expiring - Tyson's new deal started at 9 mil - and yep, you guessed it - they dealt him too - as Noah was about to arrive.  PJ Brown - JR Smith coming in that deal.

Game was changing.  Post ups were an ancient thought - due to AAU process.  This continues to today's game - in spades.

[chipstern]

Why were the Bulls eager/willing to ditch Eddy Curry?
I don't think Curry was that interested in basketball, except as a source of income and probably fame. 

Too bad we don't have the archives of this forum's past.
I'd like to see who was on board with Curry and what their arguments were.
I correctly surmised he would be a bum (he did manage to give us one pretty good year).  A low impact player.

I vaguely recall that back in the day I pronounced myself upset that we didn't pursue Tyson Chandler instead. 

But I also recall being lifted by Vindaloo Curry's 19-7 season, before he dissolved into protoplasm. 

[bodiddley]

I vaguely recall that back in the day I pronounced myself upset that we didn't pursue Tyson Chandler instead. 

No, you have that totally wrong.
I advocated holding out for TyC, and you kept saying too bad he isn't available.
And that Curry was available and would be a knick upgrade.
You were in on Curry; Bo was out.

And not too long after TyC was traded as well.

[chipstern]

We had a winning record, and a young team with good chemistry, chaired by our free agent Stoudamire, and a PG in Felton was peaking and having a career year. 

Stoudamire gave us half a season of MVP ball. That was fun.  The rest of his tenure was torture.  Punching the fire extinguisher?  Fucking bonehead cost us playoff games.  But Melo gets all the blame here for wanting what we happily gave to the uninsurable Amare.  Felton had a year or two left before he got too fat.  That pre-Melo squad had no legs.  It was a mirage. Chandler got hurt. Gallo got hurt.  Mozgov became an albatross.  It would've taken years before that miasma would have produced a playoff series win - if ever.

All interesting conclusions.  Amare's dissolution being first and foremost among the fade to whack. 

And without debating the merits of your sundry conclusions, one FACT is inescapable. 

As well as Melo performed, when gifted the center ring in the Knicks circus, his fundamental egotism, his insistence on getting his money not once BUT TWICE, handcuffed the Knicks and their ability to surround him with players who would have complemented his skill set. 

* Those draft picks were irretrievable opportunities to replenish our stock of young/high upside players to play with him. 

* His max/no trade contract on the re-up hampered our cap space, and ONCE AGAIN, the Knicks were unable to surround him with players who might have enabled him 

Denver sends Melo, Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams and Renaldo Balkman to the Knicks in exchange for Wilson Chandler (there goes that pick), Danilo Gallinari (and that one), Raymond Felton, Timofey Mozgov, one first (2014) and two seconds.

As it so happens, ironically, Denver used that #1 to select Doug McDermott (who was later involved in the OKC Melo trade which also brought us Kanter and Mitchell Robinson).

And what players were available after McDermott?

Zach Levine.  TJ Warren.  Jusuf Nurkić.  Gary Harris.  Clint Capella.  Bogdan Bogdanović

FOOTNOTE: Ace basketball handicapper Phil Jackson chose Cleanthony "Strip Club" Early at  #34 in that same 2014 Draft.  Who were selected afterwards that Phil might have tapped?  Spencer Dimwiddie.  Nikola Jokić.  Jordan Clarkson.  AGONY.

MORAL OF THIS STORY: Be careful with what you wish for and never, NEVER, discount the value of any draft picks.  This narrative is already doubling down on itself with fans eager to toss the Dallas #1 picks into any manner of deals, because they will "Only" be late first round picks.  Looking at the talent that panned out on #2 picks after Early dropped off the grid, one is heartened that among Rose's hires for Assistant GMs are cap space and scouting experts with verifiable track records. 

PS: No more wire hangers.  NO MORE MELO TRADES...or Curry Or McDyess Or Bargnani Or Marbury Or Strickland Or Gerald Henderson TRADES.  Big Tits > Knicks > DESPAIR. 

[chipstern]

I vaguely recall that back in the day I pronounced myself upset that we didn't pursue Tyson Chandler instead. 

No, you have that totally wrong.
I advocated holding out for TyC, and you kept saying too bad he isn't available.
And that Curry was available and would be a knick upgrade.
You were in on Curry; Bo was out.

And not too long after TyC was traded as well.

I am truly humbled. 

[kiidcarter8]

But I also recall being lifted by Vindaloo Curry's 19-7 season, before he dissolved into protoplasm.


Yeah, like I said - quite a good player (as video vs Shaq does show)

I think he was motivated to play.  But like Tyson says, once you get hit in the mouth.....(in this case, with Curry - once not 100%), all bets are off.  Eddy may have been lazy in his rehab and his want to in getting back near 100% - since he had plenty of dough.  I won't discount that as a possibility.  But on the court he WORKED.

FWIW - Knicks probably take Ty Thomas, not Aldridge - and Stephen Hawes, not Noah...   heh. 

[kiidcarter8]

I advocated holding out for TyC, and you kept saying too bad he isn't available.


Well, that WAS the case

Did we have a PJ Brown/JR Smith in their primes duo to send to the Bulls the following year, even if we allowed Curry to be dealt elsewhere?  Wasnt the option of doing nothing a bad one at the time?  Fans CLAMORED for a deal, not that we hold out and draft a guy 2 years later when we (surely) win just 23 games again.  Remember the ROOM AT THE TIME.  The Curry deal was fine in its theory.

[carlos123]

Chip, I agree with most of what you write here, but calling Melo an EGOTIST for wanting his money doesn’t fly. It’s a job, you work to get paid even if you like your job. If Phool J. was willing to pay max. then you need to give it to Phool J., especially given what he did next, just turn around and denigrate HIS max. player.

[facilitatorn]

Why were the Bulls eager/willing to ditch Eddy Curry?
I don't think Curry was that interested in basketball, except as a source of income and probably fame. 

Too bad we don't have the archives of this forum's past.
I'd like to see who was on board with Curry and what their arguments were.
I correctly surmised he would be a bum (he did manage to give us one pretty good year).  A low impact player.

I was on board with Curry based on the extent of his ability to make crazy individual plays and his 19 and 7 (forgot he was ever that productive w Chicago, so I feel slightly less of a sucker). Since his  NY tenure, I have had much more emphasis on mental approach, awareness, fitness, and energy.

That’s why Hayes is up there with Ball and Edwards among my top three guards and Okongwu is ahead of Toppin and Advija among the forwards. It’s also why I like Killian Tille and Tyler Bey for later picks in this class.

[bodiddley]

I always prefer C's who play D.  It's just a fundamental part of a team.

Melo showed profound disinterest in Linsanity.
Didn't make much effort to remedy his defensive deficiencies.
Loved to pound the ball.
And I consider myself a moderate Melo supporter.
Was in favor of the trade, though thought we gave up a lot.

No idea why Phil not only gave Melo a 5th year (which no other team could), but also gold-plated the re-up 5-year contract with a no-trade clause, upfront payments, and I think a trade kicker (or did I imagine that last bit)?

[Kam]

Trade kicker for sure was given, but i *think* it was waived by Melo when he was traded to OKC.
Phil gave Melo the contract (slightly less than the MAX) and Melo should be faulted for accepting?  Hmm...

-----

Trade game:

What is the better trade for NY:
Gallinari, Chandler, and the two #1s  and two #2s for Melo^ and Billups.*
OR
Knox, Ntilikina, and two #1s for you choice of today's modern star. (Booker, Young, insertnamehere)

*Billups became amnestied for Tyson Chandler
^We still got Mitchell Robinson from that transaction