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Warriors

1 (33.3%)

Celtics

2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM

[elephant]

......

PG: Smith, Harper

That's 13.

No LOCK that Harkless or Dotson are back, but would think they are type of defensive players Thibs would like.

Gibson?  Some sort of cut and re-sign. 

Why?

Projecting?  Defense Offense

Robinson-Randle
Wooten-Gibson

Projecting? 

Ellington?

Gone.

Portis...Peyton?

On the bubble.  Like them both, but a numbers game.  Bobby give you offense, often seems lost on D.  Peyton a good rudder, decent defender and penetrator but we end up playing 4 on 5 offensively because his lack of a reliable jumper simply is not tenable in a starter.  Of course we could say pretty much the same things about Dennis, however....

The draft likely determines FA and Trade decisions going forward.  Not exactly a revelation, that, but summer speculations and more trade

What does Dennis Smith Jr. do better than Peyton?

Has Smith shown a reliable jumper? Or much of anything else?

Next season will mark the third year of his audition — I think two seasons were plenty.

[Kam]

It was so strange to sign both Randle and Portis.  I did some digging on NBA.com:

Randle and Portis started zero games together and mostly split court time.  They were not on court together very often.


59 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .J. Randle, .B. Portis, .F. Ntilikina, .R. Barrett.  //-32.1 net rating #knicks worst lineup
44 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .B. Portis, .R. Barrett.    // 29.2 net rating
24 minutes of J. Randle, .B. Portis, .F. Ntilikina, .D. Dotson, .K. Knox II.      // 31.5 net rating

One of them must go.  I don't even care which one.  Maybe they both should be gone but I suspect Randle stays.


Also interesting that nearly every 5-man lineup with Ntilikina and Morris had a poor net rating*

241 minutes of T. Gibson, .M. Morris Sr., .J. Randle, .F. Ntilikina, .R. Barrett     // -6.7 net rating
74 minutes of   M. Morris Sr., .J. Randle, .F. Ntilikina, .M. Robinson, .R. Barrett //-23.6 net rating
59 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .J. Randle, .B. Portis, .F. Ntilikina, .R. Barrett.       //-32.1 net rating #knicks worst lineup
22 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .B. Portis, .F. Ntilikina, .D. Dotson, .M. Robinson   // 2.6 net rating

*For context the Knicks overall net rating for the season was -6.5


So the Knicks played OK when Morris was with Randle but not paired with Portis AND Randle. 
And the Knicks played OK when Morris was paired with Payton but not with Ntilikina.
Basically Morris was a polarizing player stat-wise in addition to his other antics.  And he's gone now.

BUT with respect to the above, RJ Barrett is the common denominator in all our most negative lineups.
So let's dig a little further into Barrett's lineups:


241 minutes of T. Gibson, .M. Morris Sr., .J. Randle, .F. Ntilikina, .R. Barrett     // -6.7 net rating
120 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .M. Robinson, .R. Barrett  // 0.4 net rating
92 minutes of T. Gibson, .M. Harkless, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .R. Barrett.        // 1.4 net rating
79 minutes of T. Gibson, .R. Bullock, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .R. Barrett          // -14.6 net rating
74 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .J. Randle, .F. Ntilikina, .M. Robinson, .R. Barrett //-23.6 net rating
74 minutes of T. Gibson, .M. Morris Sr., .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .R. Barrett.     //-17.2 net rating
59 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .J. Randle, .B. Portis, .F. Ntilikina, .R. Barrett.     //-32.1 net rating #knicks worst lineup
51 minutes of M. Harkless, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .M. Robinson, .R Barrett.    //28.1 net rating

44 minutes of M. Morris Sr., .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .B. Portis, .R. Barrett.      // 29.2 net rating
32 minutes of E. Payton, .J. Randle, .K. Knox II, .M. Robinson, .R. Barrett     //4.0 net rating
32 minutes of T. Gibson, .R. Bullock, .E. Payton, .B. Portis, .R. Barrett.         // -8.0 net rating
31 minutes of R. Bullock, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, M. Robinson, .R. Barrett.     //-9.9 net rating 
 
A mixed bag thankfully.  Barrett is not the poison in the kool-aid.  And even if he was, he still hasn't payed a full rookie season.
Again you see more correlation with Morris in the negative lineups with little exception in regards to Barrett.


Some quick conclusions/questions
Was Marcus Morris just a guy who didn't play well with our putative starters Ntilikina and Barrett?
He seemed to play best with Payton.  So if Morris is gone, will Payton be less needed?
With Morris gone, will the Knicks (6-9 record after the trade deadline and -4.2 net rating) naturally keep getting better?
Are we basically much better off making the trade with the Clippers (addition by subtraction) and wise to not try to resign MM in the off-season?
Is Harkless (better with Barrett) a guy we try to keep?

[Kam]

I ran a filter on the last 15 games of the season (after the Morris for Harkless swap)
You can run it yourself here
Our top 3 lineup's with a minimum of 12 minutes used were:

92 minutes of .T. Gibson, .M. Harkless, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .R. Barrett.     //1.4 net rating
51 minutes of .M. Harkless, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .M. Robinson, .R. Barrett. // 28.1 net rating
44 minutes of W. Ellington, .B. Portis, .F. Ntilikina, .K. Knox II, .M. Robinson. //-10.0 net rating

The Ntilkina lineup, though negative is far less negative than before
And you can see how Harkless presence is felt.

[chipstern]

I ran a filter on the last 15 games of the season (after the Morris for Harkless swap)
You can run it yourself here
Our top 3 lineup's with a minimum of 12 minutes used were:

92 minutes of .T. Gibson, .M. Harkless, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .R. Barrett.     //1.4 net rating
51 minutes of .M. Harkless, .E. Payton, .J. Randle, .M. Robinson, .R. Barrett. // 28.1 net rating
44 minutes of W. Ellington, .B. Portis, .F. Ntilikina, .K. Knox II, .M. Robinson. //-10.0 net rating

The Ntilkina lineup, though negative is far less negative than before
And you can see how Harkless presence is felt.

Interesting

[kiidcarter8]

My lack of enthusiasm for Dedmon notwithstanding?

DeAndre went at #4, right after RJ.  Basically gave the Hawks 12-4-3 a night, and solid D. 

They are NOT SHOPPING HIM. 

The deal you suggest?  There would HAVE TO BE a #1 pick in there, and/or another piece, such as a Bullock or Dotson, or a Brazdeikis or Knox. 

And again, this forum's lack of enthusiasm for Julius, I would be VERY SURPRISED is the Knicks trade Randle. 

Again, it says here that Thibs gets to COACH him. 

Julius shooting threes and being a point forward facilitator? 

Not a good look. 

A post presence who can get you 20-10 and is a willing 3 dime a night passer? 

Seems like there's something to work with there.

C: Robinson, Gibson
PF: Randle, Wooten
SF/PF: Knox, Harkless
SF: Brazdeikis
SF/SG: Barrett. Bullock, Dotson
SG/PG: Ntilikina
PG: Smith, Harper

That's 13.

No LOCK that Harkless or Dotson are back, but would think they are type of defensive players Thibs would like.

Gibson?  Some sort of cut and re-sign. 

Why?

Projecting?  Defense Offense

Robinson-Randle
Wooten-Gibson

Projecting? 

Ellington?

Gone.

Portis...Peyton?

On the bubble.  Like them both, but a numbers game.  Bobby give you offense, often seems lost on D.  Peyton a good rudder, decent defender and penetrator but we end up playing 4 on 5 offensively because his lack of a reliable jumper simply is not tenable in a starter.  Of course we could say pretty much the same things about Dennis, however....

The draft likely determines FA and Trade decisions going forward.  Not exactly a revelation, that, but summer speculations and more trade

I will say it a TWELFTH time -

Payton stays - unless a PG is added.

[facilitatorn]

I think there was an idea last off-season that either Randle or Portis could do some filling in on the back line. Their actual performance in that capacity put that to bed quickly.

[carlos123]

Boston didn’t play today, so instead of irrelevant stats I’m just posting a pic. Enjoy!

[facilitatorn]

Some crazy good ball today despite the Celtics’ day off.

Dame was nuts as was GA vs. Miami.

[bodiddley]

You'd think Thibs would want Hark and Taj on his squad.  Defensive role players who set screens and fill gaps.

Elf makes sense as a backup PG.  And starter if we have nothing better.
He's a quality backup, especially if you can string some shooters around him.

I don't think Randle will be easy to trade.
But his future with the Knix depends on whether he can coexist with Mitch.
I don't see it, but we'd want them to develop some chemistry and defensive cohesion and somehow not get in the way on offense.  Looks like iffy D and a clogged paint, while RJB our prized rook needs driving/cutting lanes.

Portis can help score on some team's 2nd unit.  But he's not worth $15M and doesn't fit these Knix.  Far too inattentive on D.  And just doesn't play smart.  Has aggression and scoring prowess (a bit erratic).  Could just remain a wildcard type, or maybe get more focused and understand situations better as he ages. 
Some team will pick him up for $8M, and in the right role he could thrive.

[bodiddley]

If we're going forward with a core of Mitch - RJB - Franc/Elf -- that's three(/4) guys without a 3-ball.  And not much ballhandling/passing.  So you need shooters.
Aside from MaMo who is gone, next we had 3 guys who shot league average on 3's -- Dot, Trier, Portis.  Trier is gone, Portis not likely to return.

So for next year, we're bringing back one young guy -- Dot --who shot league average on 3's.  And likely no one who made more then 1/3 of their 3's.
Our yute core -- RJB, Knox, Franc all shot 32% on 3's.
Jr. Smith 30%; Elf 20%.  Bullox likely can do better than his marginal 33.3%.

Conclusion: Knix desperately need shooters.
(and a starting PG).

I'd love to get Ball in the draft.  But if there was a way to secure Edwards, that would be great too.

[facilitatorn]

In terms of production range to salary for guys we have on option or guys we’d have to QO creating cap holds,

Bullock is a good - very good deal as he should be healthy this go round.

Payton is a good - fair deal as a good backup / spot starter who’d be better if he fixed his shot.

Taj is a bit high for what he brings at this point but he’s still productive on the court.

Ellington is a bad deal relative to available talent.

Portis, while a nice offensive and effort player is not worth his option due to defensive limitations.

We start from scratch on Harkless, as he’s a UFA.

If we can QO Dotson and it creates a hold less than seven mil, I think that would be worthwhile.

[bodiddley]

KZ 30 / 9 / 5 -- made all 9 FT's.
Team was -11 v. Clips in the 8 minutes KZ didn't play.

KZ's counterpart Zubac did go off for 21 & 15 and a perfect 10/10 FG
Though didn't see the game, and a lot of that could have been KZ coming over on help defense allowing Zubac to help himself to putbacks.

Trey Burke went 0-7 on 3's.

[kiidcarter8]

I'd love to get Ball in the draft.  But if there was a way to secure Edwards, that would be great too.



Amen.


Though the best shooters are likely Vassell and Nesmith

[kiidcarter8]

I do think you have to seriously consider Wiseman if it goes as NBAdraft.net has it - Edwards, Ball, Toppin, Hayes, Avdija.

Haliburton, Wiseman, Anthony, Achiuwa, Okongwu, Vassell, Nesmith, Carey to choose from.


https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/

[bodiddley]

Maybe a possibility of trading down to get Vassell and pick up some sweetener for helping another team lower down get Wiseman(?)

After Edwards/Ball, I'm interested in Okongwu.  Seems like a winner.  An energy Big you can start for a decade.  Don't think I even saw video on Vassell yet, but interested in anyone considered the best shooter in the draft.

Avidja and Halliburton probably my next two.
But I'm not a draftnik and have only seen a few minutes of vid on most the Top 7 guys.

I keep hoping that Obi Topcat and Wiseman James, both at times listed at #1 overall in the past, go high, moving more G's and talent we want down to us.