Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Warriors

1 (33.3%)

Celtics

2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM

[facilitatorn]

Elephant

do you support a deal of Toppin and Quickey plus four number ones for Mitchell?

Yeah.

The Knicks would certainly take that offer.

Fuck that.

If Ainge wants Toppin and Quickley, he has to take Fournier and he gets 3 number ones, only one ours and that top 5 protected.

[kidcarter8]

Yes, Fournier is in that deal.  Makes it 25.7 mil going out and 30.3  coming in  . 
 

[facilitatorn]

Ainge will have to send us picks if he wants to get off Mitchell that way. What is he offering in terms of outgoing Utah firsts?

[kiidcarter8]

Interesting


https://dailyknicks.com/2022/08/10/espn-knicks-free-agent-carmelo-anthony-best-option/

[chipstern]

Interesting


https://dailyknicks.com/2022/08/10/espn-knicks-free-agent-carmelo-anthony-best-option/

A pants load predicated on the presumption that we are offloading Obi to Utah. 

[kidcarter8]

Someone has to go, Chip - if we are to make the deal.  Piecing together what is left shouldnt be spit upon.  if you think we should just stand pat if Obi leaves just say so.  Maybe Reddish gets minutes at the 4 or Hertenstein more 4, Sims moving up a notch at the 5 and a free agent BIG added?   What is your pleasure?  Just stating a third year guy who doesnt even start is an untouchable for an All Star in return is something that would not have your basketball heroes (scribes, anaylysts, other) complimenting you for thought.

[chipstern]

Someone has to go, Chip - if we are to make the deal.  Piecing together what is left shouldnt be spit upon.  if you think we should just stand pat if Obi leaves just say so.  Maybe Reddish gets minutes at the 4 or Hertenstein more 4, Sims moving up a notch at the 5 and a free agent BIG added?   What is your pleasure?  Just stating a third year guy who doesnt even start is an untouchable for an All Star in return is something that would not have your basketball heroes (scribes, anaylysts, other) complimenting you for thought.

Yes the same geniuses that were Cukoo For Cooca Puffs that we HAD TO GET CARMELO at any cost. 

All of these projections? 

I do not believe you can fathom how few fucks I have to give about this whole steaming pile of jive. 

I have ZERO interest in pursuing a mega deal for Donovan Mitchell.

I believe the whole idea is overhyped, and the projections overheated. 

Ironic, as in my mind, this is the second coming of THE ORIGINAL CARMELO DEAL. 

As you'll recall, Anthony's insistence on getting a trade done during the season, rather than waiting for summer free agency, was predicated on him GETTING HIS GUARANTEED MONEY out front [I believe there was the threat of a lock out at the time], and it cost our team significant assets, including A POINT GUARD who was having his best season as a pro, and young, rookie contract depth of such import, that we subsequently could only get to the first round twice and the second round once in the playoffs, before subsequently going right in the crapper, because we had sundered all of our young talent and such significant draft capital that we were not able to construct an enduring competive squad around Anthony. 

Melo played 27 games in 2010-2011. his first, post-trade season [42-40], and were whupped 4-0 in the first round of the playoffs by the Celtics. 

In the labor dispute shortened 2011-2012 second season [36-30], Anthony significantly undermined Coach D'Antoni, farted in the general direction of Jeremy Lin and the success and fan embrace he enjoyed, leading to D'Antoni's departure and a significant late season run under interim coach Mike Woodson, only to fall 4-1 to the Heat in the first round. 

In 2012-13, as Amare's body gave out, we cobbled together a one and done group of veterans, such as Jason Kidd, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby, Kenyon Martin, Pablo Prigioni, Steve Novak and Kurt Thomas, as Melo enjoyed his best season, averaging 28.7 per game, and in tandem with Tyson Chandler, J.R. Smith, Raymond Felton and Iman Shumpert, we went [54-28], beat thje Celtics 4-2 in the first round, falling 4-2 to the Pacers in the second round.

FROM THERE, The Melo Epoch Descended Into A Giant Liquid Fart.   

In 2013-2014, the BARGNANI Knicks, returned to Earth, Anthony having one of his best statistical seasons, with 27.4-8.1-3.1, but we fell to 37-45, and failed to make the playoffs. 

ALL DOWNHILL FROM THERE, as 2014-2015 ushered in the PHOOL JAGOFF EPOCH and we went 17-65; 32-50 in 2015-2016; 31-51 in 2016-2017, marked by the infamous Phool Jagoff public dressing down of Carmelo, relieved that summer by Scott Perry finding a taker in OKC, for Enes Kanter, Doug McDermott and the #2 pick which turned into Mitchell Robinson. 

SO in Melo's Seven Seasons: 42-40, 36-30, 54-28, 37-45, 17-65, 32-50, 31-51

Two barely over .500, a one and done with a group of game bur ancient vets, and a descent into hell. 

Melo's insistence on GETTING HIS MONEY, the cost of his trades, and his contract shenningans, basically hamstrung us personnel wise long term.  Plus, PLUS, a great player, but did he make his teammates better? 

NOW THERE WERE MANY REASONS WHY THE TRADE DIDN'T PAN OUT, not all of them Anthony's fault, but significantly, we gave up so much young talent and trade assets, and were subsequently hamstrung by Carmelo's ME FIRST insistance on a max deal, and Jagoff's strangulation by triangulation, that we could not move forward. 

So you'll forgive me if I am NOT NOSTALGIC FOR A RETURN ENGAGEMENT. 

Nor am I enthusiastic for YET ANOTHER SELF-IMMOLATING PURSUIT OF A SHINY OBJECT AT ANY COST. 

Again, Donovan Mitchell is a significant talent, he is a winner, but he is no Luka Doncic.  While his Jazz have been a perennial playoff team, they never advanced beyond the second round, which as a Knicks fan, would sure look sweet, given our 20+Plus Year journey in the wilderness. 

Still, the price is WACK. 

I like our talent. 

I am perfectlyy content to go to war with Brunson/Rose/Quickley/McBride at PG, Fournier/Grimes at SG, Barrett/Reddish at SF, Randle/Toppin at PF/C, Robinson/Hartenstein at C. 

This OBSESSION with Donovan Mitchell IS TOTAL BULLSHIT, and the idea of shipping out Obi, Grimes, IQ PLUS Draft Capital to acquire Donovan Mitchell makes me sick to my stomach. 

And offloading Obi because he is behind Randle, is moronic on a similar plane as when we offloaded Strickland because he was behind Mark Jackson.  Melo?  Mo Cheeks? 

And I'm supposed to get excited for 2022-23 because we paid a king's ransom for Donovan Mitchell, and brought back Carmelo Anthony at thirtyFUCKINGeight.  FUCK CARMELO ANTHONY.  I have zero nostalgia for a second act

So we can spend the next decade watching Obi, Quentin and Immanuel enjoying significant careers, and what those draft picks turn into.  And wondering why Donovan Mitchell didn't translate into PLAYOFF SUCCESS to such a degree tha Ainge is ready to tear it all down.  HELLO?
 , or pan out any better in NY than he did in Utah, stats notwithstanding. 

FUCK IT

[elephant]

So as site historian, Chip, would you mind listing the young guys the Knicks have selected in the last 20 years that they let go, and then saw develop into stars and superstars on other teams.

Because I'd really like to see that list.

Maybe that might make more sense of the constant pipe dream you relate that RJ will be a star and Grimes, yeah, he's gonna be great, and Obi, o boy he'll be a star, and don't sleep on Quickley, he's gonna make that jump and.....and.....and....

It's pretty exhausting.

Men that prove themselves in the highest strata of the NBA remain as rare as hen's teeth. That's why we make the fucking deal.

[elephant]

BTW, my last note has nothing to do with the Melo talk, which is just some August bullshit discussion because nothing else is going on.

[chipstern]

So as site historian, Chip, would you mind listing the young guys the Knicks have selected in the last 20 years that they let go, and then saw develop into stars and superstars on other teams.

Because I'd really like to see that list.

Maybe that might make more sense of the constant pipe dream you relate that RJ will be a star and Grimes, yeah, he's gonna be great, and Obi, o boy he'll be a star, and don't sleep on Quickley, he's gonna make that jump and.....and.....and....

It's pretty exhausting.

Men that prove themselves in the highest strata of the NBA remain as rare as hen's teeth. That's why we make the fucking deal.

Disagree.  That's why you DON'T MAKE THE DEAL.  When you draft well, you don't, to may way of thinking, offload it for shiny objects.  YOU DEVELOP IT.  And when the fruit is ripe, THEN do you contemplate exchanging it: value for value. 

You have to be patient.  I view the Mitchell Deal as a shakedown.  Compromising our future and our present.  Unless Ainge gets a grip, FUCK HIM. 

If you go back and look at Knicks DRAFT BOARDS for the past 30 Years, you will notice many a year when we had NO #1 picks, and sometimes, no #2 picks.  Sometimes weak drafts.  Sometimes weak selections.  And when we did score talent, we dumped it, never you mind players we lost out on from traded #1 picks [Scottie Pippen, Joakim Noah, LaMarcus Aldridge, Gordon Hayward, Jaamal Murray]

Let's see, what pups have we let go.  Off the top of my head. 

Rod Strickland
John Wallace
Nene Hillario
Trevor Ariza
Channing Frye
David Lee
Nate Rolbinson
Iman Shumpert
Danillo Gallinari
Wilson Chandler
Timothy Mozgov
Timmy Hardaway
Kristaps Porzingis

Our drafts since 1992

1992: Hubert Davis [#20]
1993: [No Picks]
1994: Monty Williams [#24], Charlie Ward [#26]
1995: [No Picks]
1996: John Wallace [#18], Walter McCarty [#19], Donate Jones [#21]
1997: John Thomas [#25]
1998: DeMarco Johnson [#38], Sean Marls [#44]
1999: Fredceric Weis [#15], J.R. Koch [#46]
2000: Donnell Harvey [#22]
2001: Michael Wright [#39], Eric Chenowith [#43]
2002: Nene Hillario [#7], Milos Vujanic [#36]
2003: Mike Sweetney [#9] Marceij Lampe [#30], Slvako Vranes [#39]
2004: Trevor Ariza [#43]
2005: Channing Frye [#8], David Lee [#30], Dijon Thompson [#54]
2006: Renaldo Balkman [#20], Mardy Collins [#29]
2007: Wilson Chandler [#23]
2008: Danillo Gallinari [#6]
2009: Jordan Hill [#8]
2010: Andy Rautins [#38], Landry Fields [#39]
2011: Iman Shumpert [#17]
2012: Kostas Papanikolaou [#48]
2013: Timmy Hardaway [#24]
2014: Cleanthony Early [#34], Thanasis Antetokounmpo [#51]
2015: Kristaps Porzingis [#4]
2016: [No Picks]
2017: Frank Ntilikina [#8], Damyeon Dotson [#44]
2018: Kevin Knox [#9], Mitchell Robinson [#36]
2019: R.J. Barrett [#3], Kyle Guy [#55], Ignas Brazdeikis [#47]
2020: Obi Toppin [#8], Leandro Balmaro [#23], Immanuel Quickley [#25]
2021: Kai Jones [#19], Keon Johnson [#21], Quentin Grimes [#25], Jeremiah Robinson-Earl [#32], Rokas Jokubaitis [#34], Miles McBride [#36], Jericho Sims [#58]
2022: Ousmane Dieng [#11], Trevor Keels [#42]

Not sure what we can glean from this list: Ntilikina was a bust, Robinson was a keeper, Knox and a 2021 #1 [via Charlotte] got us Cam Reddish [#10, 2019]

But from the Leon Rose Drafts & Trades: Toppin, Quickley, Grimes, Jokubaitis, McBride, Sims, Reddish, Keels. 

I understand that you feel as though I am wildly overestimating the upside of these puppies.

I preach patience.

WHY?

Let's look at competitive Knicks Teams Of The Late 1960s & 1970s, when there were many more rounds, and a lot fewer teams, and how they developed youth, and didn't overpay in trades.   

1963: Art Heyman [#2]
1964: Jim Barnes [#3], Willis Reed [#10], Howard Komives [#15], Emmette Bryant [#55]
1965: Bill Bradley [#2], Dave Stallworth [#5], Dick Van Arsdale [#13],
1966: Cazzie Russell [#1]
1967: Walt Frazier [#5], Phil Jackson [#17], Mike Riordan [#128]
1968: Bill Hosket [#10], Donnie May [#30]

Let's see. 

Van Arsdale was an excellent player for the Knicks but they lost him in the expansion draft to the Phoenix Suns, along with Emmette Bryant. 

The Knicks traded Johnny Green, Johnny Egan, Jim Barnes, and cash in 1965 for Walt Bellamy, also trading Bob Boozer to the Lakers for Dick Barnett.  Howard Komives was, I believe the nation's leading scorer when the Knicks drafted him.  They packaged Komives and Bellamy [a Hall Of Famer center] for Dave DeBusherre.  This opened up the PG slot for Walt Frazier and allowed them to slot Dave at PF, and slide Willis over from PF to Center, while concluding Bill Bradley was not a guard but a SF, while Cazzie and Stallworth and Riordan were wings off the bench, and Jackson backed up the center and PF. 

Eventually, Stallworth and Riordan were packaged for Earl Monroe.  And when Willis went down, Cazzie was traded for Jerry Lucas. 

So the Knicks nurtured their puppies from 1964-1968, lost two to the expansion draft, and werre prudent in how they packaged them in trades. 

Emmette Bryant
Dick Van Arsdale
Howard Komives
Willis Reed
Bill Bradley
Walt Frazier
Phil Jackson
Dave Stallworth
Mike Riordan
Cazzie Russell

So, of our puppies, we lost Bryant and Van Arsdale to the expansion draft. 
We converted Komives into Dave D
We converted Stallworth and Riordan to Monroe
We converted Cazzie To Lucas

Reed, Bradley, Frazier and Jackson were lifers. 

[elephant]

So as site historian, Chip, would you mind listing the young guys the Knicks have selected in the last 20 years that they let go, and then saw develop into stars and superstars on other teams.

Because I'd really like to see that list.

Maybe that might make more sense of the constant pipe dream you relate that RJ will be a star and Grimes, yeah, he's gonna be great, and Obi, o boy he'll be a star, and don't sleep on Quickley, he's gonna make that jump and.....and.....and....

It's pretty exhausting.

Men that prove themselves in the highest strata of the NBA remain as rare as hen's teeth. That's why we make the fucking deal.

Disagree.  That's why you DON'T MAKE THE DEAL.  When you draft well, you don't, to may way of thinking, offload it for shiny objects.  YOU DEVELOP IT.  And when the fruit is ripe, THEN do you contemplate exchanging it: value for value. 

Why the constant objectification with a "shiny object?"

Are we talking about a star who is old and over the hill?
Are we talking about a star who is a selfish head case?
Are we talking about a star who has a career of debilitating injuries?

No? Then we're NOT talking about something unwisely speculative. We're NOT talking about something illusory.

We're talking about a 25-year-old all star. And to get a star, yeah, you often have to give away the "promise" attached to other players, knowing that such promise is rarely realized.

[elephant]

So as site historian, Chip, would you mind listing the young guys the Knicks have selected in the last 20 years that they let go, and then saw develop into stars and superstars on other teams.

Because I'd really like to see that list.

Maybe that might make more sense of the constant pipe dream you relate that RJ will be a star and Grimes, yeah, he's gonna be great, and Obi, o boy he'll be a star, and don't sleep on Quickley, he's gonna make that jump and.....and.....and....

It's pretty exhausting.

Men that prove themselves in the highest strata of the NBA remain as rare as hen's teeth. That's why we make the fucking deal.

.....

I understand that you feel as though I am wildly overestimating the upside of these puppies.

I preach patience.

WHY?

Let's look at competitive Knicks Teams Of The Late 1960s & 1970s, when there were many more rounds, and a lot fewer teams, and how they developed youth, and didn't overpay in trades.   

1963: Art Heyman [#2]
1964: Jim Barnes [#3], Willis Reed [#10], Howard Komives [#15], Emmette Bryant [#55]
1965: Bill Bradley [#2], Dave Stallworth [#5], Dick Van Arsdale [#13],
1966: Cazzie Russell [#1]
1967: Walt Frazier [#5], Phil Jackson [#17], Mike Riordan [#128]
1968: Bill Hosket [#10], Donnie May [#30]

Let's see. 

Van Arsdale was an excellent player for the Knicks but they lost him in the expansion draft to the Phoenix Suns, along with Emmette Bryant. 

The Knicks traded Johnny Green, Johnny Egan, Jim Barnes, and cash in 1965 for Walt Bellamy, also trading Bob Boozer to the Lakers for Dick Barnett.  Howard Komives was, I believe the nation's leading scorer when the Knicks drafted him.  They packaged Komives and Bellamy [a Hall Of Famer center] for Dave DeBusherre.  This opened up the PG slot for Walt Frazier and allowed them to slot Dave at PF, and slide Willis over from PF to Center, while concluding Bill Bradley was not a guard but a SF, while Cazzie and Stallworth and Riordan were wings off the bench, and Jackson backed up the center and PF. 

Eventually, Stallworth and Riordan were packaged for Earl Monroe.  And when Willis went down, Cazzie was traded for Jerry Lucas. 

So the Knicks nurtured their puppies from 1964-1968, lost two to the expansion draft, and werre prudent in how they packaged them in trades. 

Emmette Bryant
Dick Van Arsdale
Howard Komives
Willis Reed
Bill Bradley
Walt Frazier
Phil Jackson
Dave Stallworth
Mike Riordan
Cazzie Russell

So, of our puppies, we lost Bryant and Van Arsdale to the expansion draft. 
We converted Komives into Dave D
We converted Stallworth and Riordan to Monroe
We converted Cazzie To Lucas

Reed, Bradley, Frazier and Jackson were lifers.

I appreciate (and learn something) from your history here.

But might it be a weakness of your argument that you have to reach back 45 years to make your point?

[kidcarter8]

I Knew Chip was coming back with STRICKLAND for Cheeks, so I found this for the group:

Dude was NOT a good Knickerbocker team guy

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/22/sports/knicks-trade-strickland-to-spurs-for-cheeks.html#:~:text=Rod%20Strickland%2C%20the%20unhappy%20Knick,%2Dyear%2Dold%20Maurice%20Cheeks.

[kidcarter8]

Are we talking about a star who is a selfish head case?



Do we even know anymore - who is and isn't?

[chipstern]

So as site historian, Chip, would you mind listing the young guys the Knicks have selected in the last 20 years that they let go, and then saw develop into stars and superstars on other teams.

Because I'd really like to see that list.

Maybe that might make more sense of the constant pipe dream you relate that RJ will be a star and Grimes, yeah, he's gonna be great, and Obi, o boy he'll be a star, and don't sleep on Quickley, he's gonna make that jump and.....and.....and....

It's pretty exhausting.

Men that prove themselves in the highest strata of the NBA remain as rare as hen's teeth. That's why we make the fucking deal.

.....

I understand that you feel as though I am wildly overestimating the upside of these puppies.

I preach patience.

WHY?

Let's look at competitive Knicks Teams Of The Late 1960s & 1970s, when there were many more rounds, and a lot fewer teams, and how they developed youth, and didn't overpay in trades.   

1963: Art Heyman [#2]
1964: Jim Barnes [#3], Willis Reed [#10], Howard Komives [#15], Emmette Bryant [#55]
1965: Bill Bradley [#2], Dave Stallworth [#5], Dick Van Arsdale [#13],
1966: Cazzie Russell [#1]
1967: Walt Frazier [#5], Phil Jackson [#17], Mike Riordan [#128]
1968: Bill Hosket [#10], Donnie May [#30]

Let's see. 

Van Arsdale was an excellent player for the Knicks but they lost him in the expansion draft to the Phoenix Suns, along with Emmette Bryant. 

The Knicks traded Johnny Green, Johnny Egan, Jim Barnes, and cash in 1965 for Walt Bellamy, also trading Bob Boozer to the Lakers for Dick Barnett.  Howard Komives was, I believe the nation's leading scorer when the Knicks drafted him.  They packaged Komives and Bellamy [a Hall Of Famer center] for Dave DeBusherre.  This opened up the PG slot for Walt Frazier and allowed them to slot Dave at PF, and slide Willis over from PF to Center, while concluding Bill Bradley was not a guard but a SF, while Cazzie and Stallworth and Riordan were wings off the bench, and Jackson backed up the center and PF. 

Eventually, Stallworth and Riordan were packaged for Earl Monroe.  And when Willis went down, Cazzie was traded for Jerry Lucas. 

So the Knicks nurtured their puppies from 1964-1968, lost two to the expansion draft, and werre prudent in how they packaged them in trades. 

Emmette Bryant
Dick Van Arsdale
Howard Komives
Willis Reed
Bill Bradley
Walt Frazier
Phil Jackson
Dave Stallworth
Mike Riordan
Cazzie Russell

So, of our puppies, we lost Bryant and Van Arsdale to the expansion draft. 
We converted Komives into Dave D
We converted Stallworth and Riordan to Monroe
We converted Cazzie To Lucas

Reed, Bradley, Frazier and Jackson were lifers.

I appreciate (and learn something) from your history here.

But might it be a weakness of your argument that you have to reach back 45 years to make your point?

Might