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Warriors

1 (33.3%)

Celtics

2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM

[kiidcarter8]

Cribbing from an online discussion, and paraphrasing. Who would be the Knicks starting five under the following rules:

- one who can reasonably be viewed as the GOAT
- one star from the team's golden era
- one founding father / OG player, perhaps forgotten by modern fans
- one player with a strong local connection
- one underdog type player
- the coach is the one who was most beloved by the fans

Additionally, the players should form something approximating an actual starting five (ie, cannot start Ewing/Reed/Oakley/DeBusschere/Tyson)


My take:


PG - Clyde (golden era)
SG - Starks (underdog)
SF - King (local connection)
PF - Harry the Horse (founding father)
C - Ewing (GOAT)
Coach - JVG

Toughest pick, really, was local connection (Melo, Marbury, Mark Jackson, Richie Guerin, Carl Braun)

Ewing
Frazier
Fredette
King
Nauls
Holzman

[kiidcarter8]

Of course Enes wanted a long term contract. 

DECIDED he wants to be here

That's the point.

[thebizneverloses]

Cribbing from an online discussion, and paraphrasing. Who would be the Knicks starting five under the following rules:

- one who can reasonably be viewed as the GOAT
- one star from the team's golden era
- one founding father / OG player, perhaps forgotten by modern fans
- one player with a strong local connection
- one underdog type player
- the coach is the one who was most beloved by the fans

Additionally, the players should form something approximating an actual starting five (ie, cannot start Ewing/Reed/Oakley/DeBusschere/Tyson)


My take:


PG - Clyde (golden era)
SG - Starks (underdog)
SF - King (local connection)
PF - Harry the Horse (founding father)
C - Ewing (GOAT)
Coach - JVG

Toughest pick, really, was local connection (Melo, Marbury, Mark Jackson, Richie Guerin, Carl Braun)

Cornbread?

How about Paul Pierce?

Also, Larry Bird played the 3-spot.  McHale played the 4-spot, as did Tommy Heinsohn and Paul Silas. 

Oh, and Ewing over Reed?  Starks over Monroe or Barnett?  JVG over Holtzman? 

To each his own.  A matter of our relative ages, I suspect.

Pierce wasn't really an underdog, as he was a lottery pick who was the centre of the team for years.

Bird was a 3, sure (he'd be a 4 today), but just wanted to make room for Maxwell.

Monroe, like Pierce, doesn't count as the underdog type I was looking for over Starks. I agree that he was a better player than Starks.

Red over JVG makes more sense, I'll concede.

Ewing
Frazier
Fredette
King
Nauls
Holzman

So the same team (I'll concede Holzman, as I said) save for Nauls over Gallatin and....Jimmer?

[chipstern]

Cribbing from an online discussion, and paraphrasing. Who would be the Knicks starting five under the following rules:

- one who can reasonably be viewed as the GOAT
- one star from the team's golden era
- one founding father / OG player, perhaps forgotten by modern fans
- one player with a strong local connection
- one underdog type player
- the coach is the one who was most beloved by the fans

Additionally, the players should form something approximating an actual starting five (ie, cannot start Ewing/Reed/Oakley/DeBusschere/Tyson)


My take:


PG - Clyde (golden era)
SG - Starks (underdog)
SF - King (local connection)
PF - Harry the Horse (founding father)
C - Ewing (GOAT)
Coach - JVG

Toughest pick, really, was local connection (Melo, Marbury, Mark Jackson, Richie Guerin, Carl Braun)

Cornbread?

How about Paul Pierce?

Also, Larry Bird played the 3-spot.  McHale played the 4-spot, as did Tommy Heinsohn and Paul Silas. 

Oh, and Ewing over Reed?  Starks over Monroe or Barnett?  JVG over Holtzman? 

To each his own.  A matter of our relative ages, I suspect.

Pierce wasn't really an underdog, as he was a lottery pick who was the centre of the team for years.

Bird was a 3, sure (he'd be a 4 today), but just wanted to make room for Maxwell.

Monroe, like Pierce, doesn't count as the underdog type I was looking for over Starks. I agree that he was a better player than Starks.

Red over JVG makes more sense, I'll concede.

Ewing
Frazier
Fredette
King
Nauls
Holzman

So the same team (I'll concede Holzman, as I said) save for Nauls over Gallatin and....Jimmer?

Hard to argue with Jimmer, given his extensive resume as a Knick.

I guess I didn't understand your format. 

I'm old enough to remember those Knicks teams with Willie Naulls, and Jumping Johnny Green.  Dick McGuire was the PG on all of those '50s Knicks teams that challenged for the championship year after year, but kept running into George Mikan's Lakers.  I was born in 1952, so I was not really conscious of those Knicks teams or much else, save for Crusader Rabbit & Ragland T. Tiger, Abbott & Costello and The Lone Ranger. 

Tell you who I do remember as a Knick, was Richie Guerin who was a scoring machine from all over the floor. In 1961-62, he averaged 29.2 ppg, 6.4 boards and 6.5 assists.   
Alas, even then, to be a Knicks fan was to suffer. 

I remember attending a Knicks-Royals game at the old Garden on 50th & 8th; Lincoln's Birthday, 1961...I had just turned 9. 

Knicks jumped on the Royals in the first quarter by a score of 43-21.  Yikes.  Naulls, Green and Guerin were lighting it up.  But the Royals had this Oscar Robertson fellow.

Guerin scored 24.  Oscar scored 32.

Royals won...wait for it...Wait For It...WAIT FOR IT...105-104. 

Sound familiar? 

How do I remember all of this.

All I really remembered was that the Knicks were killing, Oscar stepped up, and they lost by one. 

I told this story to BoD, and he was kind enough to track down the original box score and pass it on to me. 

Loved those Royals teams of the 1960s with Oscar and Wayne Embry and Jack Twyman and Jerry Lucas.  Great teams, however, like those great Philly teams (save for 1966-67), they always ran into those damn Celtics.  They just didn't have the bench depth...or Bill Russell. 

Still, when people genuflect about Michael Jordan, and not to take anything away from him or his six rings, but the greatest of all time? 

Sorry, no sale...OSCAR ROBERTSON. 

For all intents and purposes, the man was a walking triple double night in, night out, season after season.  Great physical gifts, but what really set him apart was his intuition, his court vision, his genius for the game.  A very heady player.  And at 6'5", a big, powerful guard, with a great all around game: 25.7 ppg-7.5 rebounds-9.5 assists, with a career .838 FT%, playing 42.2 mpg over 14 seasons. 

Y'all know that butt bump Mark Jackson used to like to deploy to set up midrange shots?  That was Oscar Robertson's bread and butter.  He could get any shot he wanted, any time he wanted. 

Finally, let me preface this observation by cautioning that what follows is a one-dimensional, superficial comparison.  I reckon Kiid will like it though...fair enough. 

In looking at the Knicks roster, in terms of a physical specimen, a 6'5" guard with a big powerful body that reminds me of Oscar. 

EMMANUEL MUDIAY

Body.  Not game.  BODY. 

As for the kid's game, we shall see, won't we. 

I am intrigued to see how the competition between Burke, Ntilikina and Mudiay plays out.  If we could splice genetic material from all three into one PG, we'd be shitting in tall cotton, yes we would. 

[kiidcarter8]

Mudiay employed a nice turnaround J last season

Re:  the poll and Jimmer

We could take down Clyde and Jimmer and replace them with Lin (underdog) and Earl (player from golden era) if you like

[kiidcarter8]

Lin, Monroe, King, Nauls, Ewing

[facilitatorn]

GOAT - Clyde
Golden era - Willis
Local - King
Underdog - Mason
Founding father - way before my time.

[Kam]

Of course Enes wanted a long term contract. 

Knicks were not inclined to given ANYBODY a long term contract. 

Enes tested the market, and found what the THREE D's--DeAndre and DeMarcus and Dwight--discovered. 

With the exception of Kristaps, Kevin, Frank and Mitchell, everyone is on the clock. 

I think it is premature define Enes as in or out. 

The trading deadline will mean pins and needles for EVERYONE, not just Enes.  A lot of one and done contracts.  And there will be a lot of give and take between the Knicks and their free agents, as players are taking a chance on the Knicks, and Knicks are taking a flyer on players.  You have to think there is some understanding between players and the Knicks going forward.  Not that anyone is making guarantees to each other.  Just open lines of communication. 

In any event, Enes has considerable passion about remaining a Knick. 

Prove it, kid.  Prove it Enes.  Make your case.

Ditto Baker, Mudiay, Burke, Trier, Hicks, Hezonja, Vonleh...

That's SEVEN players besides Enes with expiring contracts (or, as with Mudiay, the Knicks can choose to pick up his option...or not).  Significantly, yes, Enes' contract is for what, $19 million?  Thus all of the conjecture and scenarios. 

We shall see.

You are obsessed with enes.  The original post said he was excited to see the youngsters Frank, Knox etc... to which you took great exception as if he was setting his starting lineup.  You read that wrong and you inserted your enes bias into a post where he wasn't even mentioned.

This is the post by Fac that got your Enes antlers up:

I, for one, am rather amped to see Kornet, Vonleh, Knox, Hardaway, and Ntilikina take the floor.

DOES THAT SAY STARTING AT CENTER Koronet Pizza?  No.

[kiidcarter8]

I think it implies that is his preferred lineup, yes.

[chipstern]

Of course Enes wanted a long term contract. 

Knicks were not inclined to given ANYBODY a long term contract. 

Enes tested the market, and found what the THREE D's--DeAndre and DeMarcus and Dwight--discovered. 

With the exception of Kristaps, Kevin, Frank and Mitchell, everyone is on the clock. 

I think it is premature define Enes as in or out. 

The trading deadline will mean pins and needles for EVERYONE, not just Enes.  A lot of one and done contracts.  And there will be a lot of give and take between the Knicks and their free agents, as players are taking a chance on the Knicks, and Knicks are taking a flyer on players.  You have to think there is some understanding between players and the Knicks going forward.  Not that anyone is making guarantees to each other.  Just open lines of communication. 

In any event, Enes has considerable passion about remaining a Knick. 

Prove it, kid.  Prove it Enes.  Make your case.

Ditto Baker, Mudiay, Burke, Trier, Hicks, Hezonja, Vonleh...

That's SEVEN players besides Enes with expiring contracts (or, as with Mudiay, the Knicks can choose to pick up his option...or not).  Significantly, yes, Enes' contract is for what, $19 million?  Thus all of the conjecture and scenarios. 

We shall see.

You are obsessed with enes.  The original post said he was excited to see the youngsters Frank, Knox etc... to which you took great exception as if he was setting his starting lineup.  You read that wrong and you inserted your enes bias into a post where he wasn't even mentioned.

This is the post by Fac that got your Enes antlers up:

I, for one, am rather amped to see Kornet, Vonleh, Knox, Hardaway, and Ntilikina take the floor.

DOES THAT SAY STARTING AT CENTER Koronet Pizza?  No.

Nice try. 

Looks suspiciously like a starting five to anyone not buying into your Guiliani-ready argument. 

[Nagel]

I am hoping for a Frank /Burke PG backcourt that last one year.

then of course i hope Irving leaves Boston to join NY.

EK's money will be needed to sign Irving.

[chipstern]

I am hoping for a Frank /Burke PG backcourt that last one year.

then of course i hope Irving leaves Boston to join NY.

EK's money will be needed to sign Irving.

Fair enough. 

Only one problem with that.

Everyone seems to be assuming that Kyrie is a lock to come here. 

They are building something in Boston. 

Why would Kyrie want to bolt when he could be competing for the EC Finals for the next five years? 

Knicks are going to be better.  Celtics are already there. 

[facilitatorn]

Zaza started for the Dubs for how long? There are all kinds of reasons to start guys and all kinds of ways to deploy starters in rotations.

I think it is highly unlikely the combo of Kornet, Vonleh, Knox, Hardaway, and Ntilikina will be the starting group on opening night. There is something about a track record of production that takes a monstrous camp and preseason performance to overcome. Kanter averaged a solid double-double in short minutes and epitomized commitment last season. He will most likely start.

Burke was better at running the prior Knick system than Frank was at the close of last year. If that remains the case after camp and Burke shows effective D, he should start. Mudiay looked worse than both of them, but it’s a new system so who knows?

I expect Knox to beat out Mario for starting SF.

Tim I’ve talked about.

I think Vonleh is better than Lance, but I wouldn’t be shocked to see Lance start anyway.

Starters could be Kanter, Thomas, Knox, Hardaway, and Burke.

This lineup will be easy to attack at the C and PG for a lot of teams. Rebounding is there. Thomas provides some leadership on D and hits 3’s at a good clip. It still seems like a recipe for getting in the hole early.

Kornet, Vonleh, Knox, Hardaway, Ntilikina gives you good length at every position with four guys who at least somewhat cover three positions along with actual shot blocking production at center. On the other side, you can play 5 out and run double screens, back picks, and other actions until a bad matchup can be taken right into the post or driven by while a big is locked outside on Kornet. This could be good for everyone’s shooting percentage. You also have Frank, Tim, and Kevin to break with NV filling the lane. Vonleh also hoovers boards. 7’, 6’9”, 6’9”, 6’5”, 6’5” is pretty ideal size for an NBA lineup, but this group is inexperienced, so far inconsistent and inefficient. Can Fiz get this group to play like it seems they should be able to on paper? Also, KP should be able to replace Kornet in that lineup when he’s ready and find a group ready to cater to his strengths and protect his weaknesses from the jump. KP, Vonleh, Knox, Hardaway, Ntilikina makes even more sense. For now, Kornet is a stand in.

Robinson, Vonleh, Thomas, Dotson, and Ntilikina might be our best defensive lineup. You could say Lee over Dotson, but Lee was dogging it by the time the year wound down & isn’t getting any quicker which is key to exceptional D. If we are very lucky, Knox will be every bit the defender that Thomas is, in which case his offense would be welcomed in this lineup. Robinson, Vonleh, Knox, Dotson, Ntilikina. We’d need to see efficiency from our sophomore guards for this to be worth pursuing.

To open, we have 3 bigs (Kanter, Kornet, Robinson) with very different games. We need to make the best of them till KP gets back. We also have 3 forwards (Vonleh, Thomas, Knox) who are similarly dissimilar. The coach needs to find the right combination in each situation. Among the rest we need to find 4 or 5 outside players who help us all the time when they are on the court.

Because of the KP recovery (no matter who you prefer as the other big), our starting situation will be less than ideal this season.

[bodiddley]

To open, we have 3 bigs (Kanter, Kornet, Robinson) with very different games.

Yeah. Proven, nascent, and raw.

I'd be surprised if Kornet Chop Suey gets more than 10 mins per game.  I think we'll small it up a good deal when Kanter is out.

I'm not really a fan of Kanter, but he's a workhorse with a good attitude.  Let him focus on what he's good at, and see if he can slightly improve his D.

And then see what the market rate for him is next year.
There's a distinct C glut and prices are dropping. 

The most valuable C's these days are the guys who can protect the rim and dominate in PnR.  Gobert, Capela, DeAndretheGiant (and to a lesser extent OKC's Grizzly Adams).   
Then there are the athletic scorers; Towns, Embiid, Drummond.
Followed by guys like Ma Gasol, Cousin Boogie, Kev Love who can score inside and shoot 3's as the next valuable type.
Jokic stands out for his passing ability (formerly a Ma Gasol speciality).
That's 11.

Next tier is a grab-bag of guys like Dwight (in decline), Miles Turner (should be ascending), Nurkic.  Whiteside, who seems to have mental issues.  Up to 15.

Guys who can score inside and board, but don't offer rim protection, PnR menace, passing or good D are kind of anomalies: Kanter, Valanciunas, Vucevic, Monroe.
They can be useful role players but not the type you want to pay too much for.  They can be exploited especially in the playoffs.

Young C's who might be heard from:
Turner, Poetl, Len, Dieng, Maker
Ayton is expected to make a rook year impact.
No idea on La Bomba.

[Kam]

Of course Enes wanted a long term contract. 

Knicks were not inclined to given ANYBODY a long term contract. 

Enes tested the market, and found what the THREE D's--DeAndre and DeMarcus and Dwight--discovered. 

With the exception of Kristaps, Kevin, Frank and Mitchell, everyone is on the clock. 

I think it is premature define Enes as in or out. 

The trading deadline will mean pins and needles for EVERYONE, not just Enes.  A lot of one and done contracts.  And there will be a lot of give and take between the Knicks and their free agents, as players are taking a chance on the Knicks, and Knicks are taking a flyer on players.  You have to think there is some understanding between players and the Knicks going forward.  Not that anyone is making guarantees to each other.  Just open lines of communication. 

In any event, Enes has considerable passion about remaining a Knick. 

Prove it, kid.  Prove it Enes.  Make your case.

Ditto Baker, Mudiay, Burke, Trier, Hicks, Hezonja, Vonleh...

That's SEVEN players besides Enes with expiring contracts (or, as with Mudiay, the Knicks can choose to pick up his option...or not).  Significantly, yes, Enes' contract is for what, $19 million?  Thus all of the conjecture and scenarios. 

We shall see.

You are obsessed with enes.  The original post said he was excited to see the youngsters Frank, Knox etc... to which you took great exception as if he was setting his starting lineup.  You read that wrong and you inserted your enes bias into a post where he wasn't even mentioned.

This is the post by Fac that got your Enes antlers up:

I, for one, am rather amped to see Kornet, Vonleh, Knox, Hardaway, and Ntilikina take the floor.

DOES THAT SAY STARTING AT CENTER Koronet Pizza?  No.

Nice try. 

Looks suspiciously like a starting five to anyone not buying into your Guiliani-ready argument.

You're wrong.