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Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: February 13, 2022, 10:41:25 PM

[Hairy Lime]

I wonder how many white BBWAA writers WBW who could not communicate with Latin American players or didn't give a fuck if they could, never gave them the respect or credit they deserved, including HoF recognition.


Who would be the poster child for this?  Minnie Minoso?  Really?

Roberto Clemente spoke to this issue of dealing with reporters and the language barrier.

Interestingly, Jackie Robinson kept Clemente from becoming a Dodger:

https://remezcla.com/sports/the-racist-history-behind-roberto-clementes-transition-from-the-dodgers-to-the-pirates/

In terms of his societal impact on the game, I'd rank Clemente ahead of Robinson, in many ways.

Your take on the Dodgers allegedly having a quota on minorities would be to blame the black guy. Great take, Forrest.

Looks like you didn't read the whole piece.

Typical.

No, I did. O'Malley and famed swimming coach Al Campania created a system limiting the number of minorities on the Dodgers and had Robinson opine on which minority player they should get rid of..
 His response was nobody. That you would highlight the involvement of Robinson in a bigoted system created by wbite men is... what is that word...

Typical.

[Hamilton Samuels]

Known PED users A-Rod and Ortiz on the HOF ballot.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32691595/david-ortiz-alex-rodriguez-13-first-rs-hall-fame-ballot

Jimmy Rollins on the ballot, too, and his stats indicate that he should be a first ballot HOFer.

I realize you are Philadelphia uber alles but his stats are far below Alan Trammell's, and it took a committee to get him in. Rollins's biggest claim to fame is being able to stick Philly as long as he did.

Rollins' similar batters score, according to https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolliji01.shtml, a reliable source.

Barry Larkin (861.4) *
Alan Trammell (850.4) *
Lou Whitaker (836.1)
Roberto Alomar (829.5) *
Edgar Renteria (819.6)
Ryne Sandberg (814.3) *
Jay Bell (804.3)
Ted Simmons (797.1) *
Joe Morgan (795.3) *
Ray Durham (795.2)

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

But wait, there's more:

 

Rollins is the Phillies all-time hits leader with 2,455 hits in 17 seasons (more than Trammell in 20 seasons) and an MVP trophy (Trammell never won one).

Rollins led the league in triples four times. Trammell had 55 career triples, Rollins had 115. He had 235 homers, or 50 more than Trammell, in those 3 fewer seasons.

He stole 46 bags as a rookie, and he led the league in plate appearances three times and at-bats four times.

 
Rollins earned four Gold Gloves (same as Trammell and Barry Larkin) and made three All-Star games.

Rollins has more doubles, triples and home runs than Barry Larkin, Ozzie Smith, and some guy named Trammell. He has more hits than Larkin and Trammell, and is just five hits behind Smith, but with two less seasons of play than Smith.

I realize that you only watch AL ball and maybe don't realize that the NL version is still the real game, and where Rollins played almost his entire career before ending up with the White Sox for 39 games at his career's end. Trammell DH'd numerous times throughout his career, and J-Roll only did that 7 times in his entire career.

And Rollins had a higher Fielding percentage than Trammell. And, while I do think that Trammell should have been in the HOF without the aid of a committee, Rollins's will not face that situation. Maybe he can thank Trammell and Larkin and Ozzie Smith for that, but really he's earned his way to Cooperstown.




 

[Hamilton Samuels]

I wonder how many white BBWAA writers WBW who could not communicate with Latin American players or didn't give a fuck if they could, never gave them the respect or credit they deserved, including HoF recognition.


Who would be the poster child for this?  Minnie Minoso?  Really?

Roberto Clemente spoke to this issue of dealing with reporters and the language barrier.

Interestingly, Jackie Robinson kept Clemente from becoming a Dodger:

https://remezcla.com/sports/the-racist-history-behind-roberto-clementes-transition-from-the-dodgers-to-the-pirates/

In terms of his societal impact on the game, I'd rank Clemente ahead of Robinson, in many ways.

Your take on the Dodgers allegedly having a quota on minorities would be to blame the black guy. Great take, Forrest.

Looks like you didn't read the whole piece.

Typical.

No, I did. O'Malley and famed swimming coach Al Campania created a system limiting the number of minorities on the Dodgers and had Robinson opine on which minority player they should get rid of..
 His response was nobody. That you would highlight the involvement of Robinson in a bigoted system created by wbite men is... what is that word...

Typical.

Except the Robinson endorsed the program by how he answered the question of who should go down to make room for his fellow African-American, quote: If I were the GM, I would not bring Clemente to the club and send Shuba or any other white player down. If I did this, I would be setting our program back five years.


The great Mr. Robinson may have said such, too, because he recognized that Clemente was and was going to be a better ballplayer than he, but we'll never know for sure.

And my highlighting it got you to read all the way to end of the piece.

Which proves I know my audience.

[Hamilton Samuels]

Rays making sure Franco does not wander away, give him an 11 year contract!

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/11/rays-sign-wander-franco-extension-11-years.html

[Hairy Lime]

Known PED users A-Rod and Ortiz on the HOF ballot.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32691595/david-ortiz-alex-rodriguez-13-first-rs-hall-fame-ballot

Jimmy Rollins on the ballot, too, and his stats indicate that he should be a first ballot HOFer.

I realize you are Philadelphia uber alles but his stats are far below Alan Trammell's, and it took a committee to get him in. Rollins's biggest claim to fame is being able to stick Philly as long as he did.

Rollins' similar batters score, according to https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolliji01.shtml, a reliable source.

Barry Larkin (861.4) *
Alan Trammell (850.4) *
Lou Whitaker (836.1)
Roberto Alomar (829.5) *
Edgar Renteria (819.6)
Ryne Sandberg (814.3) *
Jay Bell (804.3)
Ted Simmons (797.1) *
Joe Morgan (795.3) *
Ray Durham (795.2)

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

But wait, there's more:

 

Rollins is the Phillies all-time hits leader with 2,455 hits in 17 seasons (more than Trammell in 20 seasons) and an MVP trophy (Trammell never won one).

Rollins led the league in triples four times. Trammell had 55 career triples, Rollins had 115. He had 235 homers, or 50 more than Trammell, in those 3 fewer seasons.

He stole 46 bags as a rookie, and he led the league in plate appearances three times and at-bats four times.

 
Rollins earned four Gold Gloves (same as Trammell and Barry Larkin) and made three All-Star games.

Rollins has more doubles, triples and home runs than Barry Larkin, Ozzie Smith, and some guy named Trammell. He has more hits than Larkin and Trammell, and is just five hits behind Smith, but with two less seasons of play than Smith.

I realize that you only watch AL ball and maybe don't realize that the NL version is still the real game, and where Rollins played almost his entire career before ending up with the White Sox for 39 games at his career's end. Trammell DH'd numerous times throughout his career, and J-Roll only did that 7 times in his entire career.

And Rollins had a higher Fielding percentage than Trammell. And, while I do think that Trammell should have been in the HOF without the aid of a committee, Rollins's will not face that situation. Maybe he can thank Trammell and Larkin and Ozzie Smith for that, but really he's earned his way to Cooperstown.

You are right, Lou Whittaker should be in the Hall of Fame.

I am not saying he does not have a case, but he is going to have a long wait.

[bankshot1]

Known PED users A-Rod and Ortiz on the HOF ballot.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32691595/david-ortiz-alex-rodriguez-13-first-rs-hall-fame-ballot

Jimmy Rollins on the ballot, too, and his stats indicate that he should be a first ballot HOFer.

I realize you are Philadelphia uber alles but his stats are far below Alan Trammell's, and it took a committee to get him in. Rollins's biggest claim to fame is being able to stick Philly as long as he did.

Rollins' similar batters score, according to https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolliji01.shtml, a reliable source.

Barry Larkin (861.4) *
Alan Trammell (850.4) *
Lou Whitaker (836.1)
Roberto Alomar (829.5) *
Edgar Renteria (819.6)
Ryne Sandberg (814.3) *
Jay Bell (804.3)
Ted Simmons (797.1) *
Joe Morgan (795.3) *
Ray Durham (795.2)

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

But wait, there's more:

 

Rollins is the Phillies all-time hits leader with 2,455 hits in 17 seasons (more than Trammell in 20 seasons) and an MVP trophy (Trammell never won one).

Rollins led the league in triples four times. Trammell had 55 career triples, Rollins had 115. He had 235 homers, or 50 more than Trammell, in those 3 fewer seasons.

He stole 46 bags as a rookie, and he led the league in plate appearances three times and at-bats four times.

 
Rollins earned four Gold Gloves (same as Trammell and Barry Larkin) and made three All-Star games.

Rollins has more doubles, triples and home runs than Barry Larkin, Ozzie Smith, and some guy named Trammell. He has more hits than Larkin and Trammell, and is just five hits behind Smith, but with two less seasons of play than Smith.

I realize that you only watch AL ball and maybe don't realize that the NL version is still the real game, and where Rollins played almost his entire career before ending up with the White Sox for 39 games at his career's end. Trammell DH'd numerous times throughout his career, and J-Roll only did that 7 times in his entire career.

And Rollins had a higher Fielding percentage than Trammell. And, while I do think that Trammell should have been in the HOF without the aid of a committee, Rollins's will not face that situation. Maybe he can thank Trammell and Larkin and Ozzie Smith for that, but really he's earned his way to Cooperstown.

Borderline HoF

all the decent SS were in the AL

in fact the Yankees had 2.

[Hairy Lime]

I wonder how many white BBWAA writers WBW who could not communicate with Latin American players or didn't give a fuck if they could, never gave them the respect or credit they deserved, including HoF recognition.


Who would be the poster child for this?  Minnie Minoso?  Really?

Roberto Clemente spoke to this issue of dealing with reporters and the language barrier.

Interestingly, Jackie Robinson kept Clemente from becoming a Dodger:

https://remezcla.com/sports/the-racist-history-behind-roberto-clementes-transition-from-the-dodgers-to-the-pirates/

In terms of his societal impact on the game, I'd rank Clemente ahead of Robinson, in many ways.

Your take on the Dodgers allegedly having a quota on minorities would be to blame the black guy. Great take, Forrest.

Looks like you didn't read the whole piece.

Typical.

No, I did. O'Malley and famed swimming coach Al Campania created a system limiting the number of minorities on the Dodgers and had Robinson opine on which minority player they should get rid of..
 His response was nobody. That you would highlight the involvement of Robinson in a bigoted system created by wbite men is... what is that word...

Typical.

Except the Robinson endorsed the program by how he answered the question of who should go down to make room for his fellow African-American....

Tbat the question was even put to him is the real issue.

[Hamilton Samuels]

I wonder how many white BBWAA writers WBW who could not communicate with Latin American players or didn't give a fuck if they could, never gave them the respect or credit they deserved, including HoF recognition.


Who would be the poster child for this?  Minnie Minoso?  Really?

Roberto Clemente spoke to this issue of dealing with reporters and the language barrier.

Interestingly, Jackie Robinson kept Clemente from becoming a Dodger:

https://remezcla.com/sports/the-racist-history-behind-roberto-clementes-transition-from-the-dodgers-to-the-pirates/

In terms of his societal impact on the game, I'd rank Clemente ahead of Robinson, in many ways.

Your take on the Dodgers allegedly having a quota on minorities would be to blame the black guy. Great take, Forrest.

Looks like you didn't read the whole piece.

Typical.

No, I did. O'Malley and famed swimming coach Al Campania created a system limiting the number of minorities on the Dodgers and had Robinson opine on which minority player they should get rid of..
 His response was nobody. That you would highlight the involvement of Robinson in a bigoted system created by wbite men is... what is that word...

Typical.

Except the Robinson endorsed the program by how he answered the question of who should go down to make room for his fellow African-American....

Tbat the question was even put to him is the real issue.

Perhaps, but in the end, he threw Clemente off the team. If he had said, yes, keep him, this guy's a tremendous talent and shouldn't that be all that we consider, we'd know the real value of Mr. Robinson. Instead, he went along to get along it seems.

[Hamilton Samuels]

Known PED users A-Rod and Ortiz on the HOF ballot.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32691595/david-ortiz-alex-rodriguez-13-first-rs-hall-fame-ballot

Jimmy Rollins on the ballot, too, and his stats indicate that he should be a first ballot HOFer.

I realize you are Philadelphia uber alles but his stats are far below Alan Trammell's, and it took a committee to get him in. Rollins's biggest claim to fame is being able to stick Philly as long as he did.

Rollins' similar batters score, according to https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolliji01.shtml, a reliable source.

Barry Larkin (861.4) *
Alan Trammell (850.4) *
Lou Whitaker (836.1)
Roberto Alomar (829.5) *
Edgar Renteria (819.6)
Ryne Sandberg (814.3) *
Jay Bell (804.3)
Ted Simmons (797.1) *
Joe Morgan (795.3) *
Ray Durham (795.2)

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

But wait, there's more:

 

Rollins is the Phillies all-time hits leader with 2,455 hits in 17 seasons (more than Trammell in 20 seasons) and an MVP trophy (Trammell never won one).

Rollins led the league in triples four times. Trammell had 55 career triples, Rollins had 115. He had 235 homers, or 50 more than Trammell, in those 3 fewer seasons.

He stole 46 bags as a rookie, and he led the league in plate appearances three times and at-bats four times.

 
Rollins earned four Gold Gloves (same as Trammell and Barry Larkin) and made three All-Star games.

Rollins has more doubles, triples and home runs than Barry Larkin, Ozzie Smith, and some guy named Trammell. He has more hits than Larkin and Trammell, and is just five hits behind Smith, but with two less seasons of play than Smith.

I realize that you only watch AL ball and maybe don't realize that the NL version is still the real game, and where Rollins played almost his entire career before ending up with the White Sox for 39 games at his career's end. Trammell DH'd numerous times throughout his career, and J-Roll only did that 7 times in his entire career.

And Rollins had a higher Fielding percentage than Trammell. And, while I do think that Trammell should have been in the HOF without the aid of a committee, Rollins's will not face that situation. Maybe he can thank Trammell and Larkin and Ozzie Smith for that, but really he's earned his way to Cooperstown.

Borderline HoF

all the decent SS were in the AL

in fact the Yankees had 2.

"All".

Okay, Tony Kubek.

Take a look at the era in which Rollins was winning his MVP, GGs, and playing in the post-season annually: https://www.fueledbysports.com/ranking-10-best-shortstops-since-2000/

[Hamilton Samuels]

And look here, too: https://www.sportingcharts.com/articles/mlb/10-best-shortstops-of-the-2000s.aspx

[bankshot1]

Known PED users A-Rod and Ortiz on the HOF ballot.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32691595/david-ortiz-alex-rodriguez-13-first-rs-hall-fame-ballot

Jimmy Rollins on the ballot, too, and his stats indicate that he should be a first ballot HOFer.

I realize you are Philadelphia uber alles but his stats are far below Alan Trammell's, and it took a committee to get him in. Rollins's biggest claim to fame is being able to stick Philly as long as he did.

Rollins' similar batters score, according to https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolliji01.shtml, a reliable source.

Barry Larkin (861.4) *
Alan Trammell (850.4) *
Lou Whitaker (836.1)
Roberto Alomar (829.5) *
Edgar Renteria (819.6)
Ryne Sandberg (814.3) *
Jay Bell (804.3)
Ted Simmons (797.1) *
Joe Morgan (795.3) *
Ray Durham (795.2)

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

But wait, there's more:

 

Rollins is the Phillies all-time hits leader with 2,455 hits in 17 seasons (more than Trammell in 20 seasons) and an MVP trophy (Trammell never won one).

Rollins led the league in triples four times. Trammell had 55 career triples, Rollins had 115. He had 235 homers, or 50 more than Trammell, in those 3 fewer seasons.

He stole 46 bags as a rookie, and he led the league in plate appearances three times and at-bats four times.

 
Rollins earned four Gold Gloves (same as Trammell and Barry Larkin) and made three All-Star games.

Rollins has more doubles, triples and home runs than Barry Larkin, Ozzie Smith, and some guy named Trammell. He has more hits than Larkin and Trammell, and is just five hits behind Smith, but with two less seasons of play than Smith.

I realize that you only watch AL ball and maybe don't realize that the NL version is still the real game, and where Rollins played almost his entire career before ending up with the White Sox for 39 games at his career's end. Trammell DH'd numerous times throughout his career, and J-Roll only did that 7 times in his entire career.

And Rollins had a higher Fielding percentage than Trammell. And, while I do think that Trammell should have been in the HOF without the aid of a committee, Rollins's will not face that situation. Maybe he can thank Trammell and Larkin and Ozzie Smith for that, but really he's earned his way to Cooperstown.

Borderline HoF

all the decent SS were in the AL

in fact the Yankees had 2.

"All".

Okay, Tony Kubek.

Take a look at the era in which Rollins was winning his MVP, GGs, and playing in the post-season annually: https://www.fueledbysports.com/ranking-10-best-shortstops-since-2000/

I was talking the relevant era.

Rollins won his GGs only after a 39 YO  former AL SS, who won a gazillion GG and who was the best fielding SS not named Ozzie, got a little too old, but still won GGs in the NL. And that SS was the 4th, 5th, 6th, best SS in the AL (hitting included). And that SS should have been voted in last year solely on the basis of his brilliant defense. Never mind his 2800 hits.

Rollins was a good SS, but IMO borderline.

Omar was better. 

[Hamilton Samuels]

It depends on what you value.

I like winning.

[Hairy Lime]

I wonder how many white BBWAA writers WBW who could not communicate with Latin American players or didn't give a fuck if they could, never gave them the respect or credit they deserved, including HoF recognition.


Who would be the poster child for this?  Minnie Minoso?  Really?

Roberto Clemente spoke to this issue of dealing with reporters and the language barrier.

Interestingly, Jackie Robinson kept Clemente from becoming a Dodger:

https://remezcla.com/sports/the-racist-history-behind-roberto-clementes-transition-from-the-dodgers-to-the-pirates/

In terms of his societal impact on the game, I'd rank Clemente ahead of Robinson, in many ways.

Your take on the Dodgers allegedly having a quota on minorities would be to blame the black guy. Great take, Forrest.

Looks like you didn't read the whole piece.

Typical.

No, I did. O'Malley and famed swimming coach Al Campania created a system limiting the number of minorities on the Dodgers and had Robinson opine on which minority player they should get rid of..
 His response was nobody. That you would highlight the involvement of Robinson in a bigoted system created by wbite men is... what is that word...

Typical.

Except the Robinson endorsed the program by how he answered the question of who should go down to make room for his fellow African-American....

Tbat the question was even put to him is the real issue.

Perhaps, but in the end, he threw Clemente off the team. If he had said, yes, keep him, this guy's a tremendous talent and shouldn't that be all that we consider, we'd know the real value of Mr. Robinson. Instead, he went along to get along it seems.

He was put in an impossible position where there was no good answer. The blame for not promoting Clemente is firmly with the people creating the quota system in the first place. Not with the guy trying to operate within it.

[Hairy Lime]

It depends on what you value.

I like winning.

Was not the fault of Omar that Jose Useless Pile of Horse Excrement Mesa lost confidence and threw his third best pitch at the single most important point of his career. Was not Omar shaking off Sandy Alomar calling for the heater.

I have not run the numbers but suspect the win loss record of the Indians with Omar would compare favorably with the Rollins era Fillies.

[Hamilton Samuels]

Interesting that there are 2 players in the top 10 on this all-time list, and the BBWAA will keep them out of the HOF:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml