Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Warriors

1 (33.3%)

Celtics

2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM

[bodiddley]

Again, the problem is that ObiT's upside on these Knix is as a 15 min a night backup PF.  No matter how good he does, how does he get beyond that?  How does he reach a high level limited like that?  Sure, maybe you find an extra 5-7 mins if he's playing real well.  But that slots him in as an SF where he is less likely to shine, or Julius tries to play some C.  Simply ObiT likely has more value as a 30 min a night starter elsewhere ...

Siakim is an all-star level two-way talent.   Likely TOR says No.

Robt Williams got a pretty large contract.  4/$54M.  Starting around $12M I suppose.  He's been injury prone, and only showed flashes, while also being undisciplined at times.  On a 4 year deal, I would've been looking for a discount.  More like $36M.  If he puts his game together ...
Certainly has some impressive physical tools.

Contracts I wouldn't have given:
Jared  Allen    5/$100M
Terry Rozier   4/$97M max extension
Norm Powell  5/$90M
DeM DeRozan 3/$85M

[kidcarter8]

It's cute how you are proud of the home-grown thing, Bank

But we both know further addition along the lines of Horford-Schroder-Richardson-Parker is what will get the job completed

[kidcarter8]

Siakim is an all-star level two-way talent.   Likely TOR says No.


Right

You didnt say TO WHAT exactly but we agree - as I posted a ways back

[chipstern]

Having said that I could see packaging Smart and some other recent 1st rounders/ or picks if someone attractive comes available.


Well, no

Smart is your to keep now.

Jaylen in a deal for a stud could happen

More likely three lesser guys go for a vet with not much left on deal

Horford and Schroder were excellent adds.  I dont think 24-12 - somewhere near there early - is out of the question.

LMAO

kid after telling me all the deals that you negotiated for Smart, you now say its unlikely he could be traded?

Kid right now the Celts have a young teams with 8 1st round picks, including 2 recent all-stars and a 1st team defensive team player.

That's not a bad core to add 5 more young 1st rounders to.

Or as an option to have to consider packaging some combo for another all-star calibre player.

YMMV

Packaged for a stud?

Jaylen Brown IS A STUD.

As for all of the "purported" trades, Bank, I believe your characterization of masturbatory blogsters engaging in ClickBait Criminal Conspiracies is hardly worth contemplating. 

Some of it is pure phantasy, other scenarios are clearly leaked by agents and front offices. 

Or morons, such as braying jackass Stephen A's scenario where the Knicks trade, oh, RJ, Mitchell, Obi, Knox, the #19 and #21 picks in 2021, and both of our 2023 draft picks for Dame. 

Or on a more humble level, the Collin Sexton exchange some thought worthy of consideration, which is memory serves included #19, #21, Obi, Mitchell and Kevin.  And as I recall there were plenty of scribes lambasting Rose & Perry for not picking up a superstar such as Oladipo at the trading deadline.  DUH. 

Better still, Wiggins, Wiseman, Moody and Kuminga for Simmons. 

Celtics had multiple #1 picks from Ainge's salad days, before he lost his fucking mind.  Beginning with the historic Nyets Heist. 

I love Walker, his limitations notwithstanding.  He is a fierce competitor and top tier defender. 

[kidcarter8]

I think Coach Udoka has it right -

Less HERO BALL from Brown and Tatum - more sharing - team play.

[kidcarter8]

I know Chip is bored.  I will humor him

Pretty sure the deal involved LOVE and PRINCE.  I dont recall a straight deal with just Sexton - but I will check


KNICKS GET
COLLIN SEXTON
KEVIN LOVE
TAUREAN PRINCE

CAVALIERS GET
RJ BARRETT
IMMANUEL QUICKLEY
OBI TOPPIN, KEVIN KNOX
2021 PICKS 19, 21, 32, AND 58

[kidcarter8]

A web site's opinion, during Sexton talks:

Too many New York Knicks fans think they’re going to get a great deal for Collin Sexton, so they keep pitching bad trades that send just Obi Toppin over with a fictitious fourth-round pick from 1968 to entice the Cavs into giving up a good scorer. That’s the problem, they think Cleveland is just going to roll over and offer up their bellies like a dog. They’re not, at least, we hope to the basketball overlords that they’re not going to.

The Knicks don’t have one player on their own, or one high enough draft pick to warrant trading with the Cavs. They have very little in the way of high-value talent and next to no one who would or could be described as an “elite” player. Despite what Knicks fans want to believe, R.J. Barrett isn’t turning into Kevin Durant. Maybe Latrell Sprewell minus the violent outbursts but not Durant. Frankly, the Knicks don’t have one player nearly as good as Sexton, at least not named Julius Randle.

[kidcarter8]

Rationale for the deal, WITH Love and Prince included


Why this works for both teams
For the Knicks, this is a no-brainer. They’re losing out on a possible seven free agents this year. Granted not all of them are great players but bodies can be useful in a pinch. Frank Ntilikina won’t be retained and is an out-and-out bust for the Knicks. He and fellow guard Theo Pinson are eating up dollars which doesn’t make any sense. Yup, a pun.

Taj Gibson isn’t bad for a grinder but at 35, his best days are behind him. Reggie Bullock will likely be brought back but he may be asking for a big number and may not be worth it, while Nerlens Noel is a good defensive player in limited minutes; same with Alec Burks. The problem with the guys they’re losing isn’t that they don’t fit with the team’s scheme, save for Ntilikina and Pinson, because they do. No, the problem is they don’t provide much offensive output. That was what sank the Knicks. They averaged just 95 points in the playoffs, which is worst among all playoff teams.

The four players the Knicks are trading over averaged just 37 points per game. The Cavs are sending over three players who averaged 46.6 per game. Barrett wasn’t very good on defense, nor was Quickley.

They need help scoring the ball. Tauren Prince is as good as anyone the Knicks are losing in either free agency or the trade (sans Barrett), while Kevin Love (if healthy) would be able to rebound and shoot, even if in limited minutes, better than anyone else on their roster. The addition of Collin Sexton would also give them a dynamic scorer that they so desperately need.

For the Cavs, R.J. Barrett would be a nice building block but he’s not going to be an elite scorer. What he already is will more than likely be what he’ll be going forward. Which is fine. Then you add Immanuel Quickley is your sixth man off the bench, while if you can get anything from Obi Toppin, that’s a win. Kevin Knox coming over is a courtesy addition, to help Knicks fans think they actually got something for him.

The draft picks are imperative, mostly because the Cavs aren’t going to be getting much if anything that late in the draft unless you can package them for a team that needs role players. Even if not, you can use those four picks to add some bodies and allow yourself to move on from some bad acquisitions you already have on your roster.



- from the site that proposed it

[facilitatorn]

I don’t think the website itself has that opinion. It’s probably just holding the opinion of some writer.

[chipstern]

Again, the problem is that ObiT's upside on these Knix is as a 15 min a night backup PF.  No matter how good he does, how does he get beyond that?  How does he reach a high level limited like that?  Sure, maybe you find an extra 5-7 mins if he's playing real well.  But that slots him in as an SF where he is less likely to shine, or Julius tries to play some C.  Simply ObiT likely has more value as a 30 min a night starter elsewhere ...

Siakim is an all-star level two-way talent.   Likely TOR says No.

Robt Williams got a pretty large contract.  4/$54M.  Starting around $12M I suppose.  He's been injury prone, and only showed flashes, while also being undisciplined at times.  On a 4 year deal, I would've been looking for a discount.  More like $36M.  If he puts his game together ...
Certainly has some impressive physical tools.

Contracts I wouldn't have given:
Jared  Allen    5/$100M
Terry Rozier   4/$97M max extension
Norm Powell  5/$90M
DeM DeRozan 3/$85M

Says YOU. 

Knicks clearly have other ideas.  So does Obi.  He has barely scratched the surface of his potential.  For BoD to dismiss him as 15 minutes a night, is, well, THAT'S BOD.  I suspect Thibs begs to differ. 

Not to cast aspersions on your handicapping skills, nevertheless I have a distinct memory from the not so distant past of you mocking me for suggesting that James Harden was slotted to function as a PG for the Rockets. 

HEY, Haliburton was MY PICK at #8. 

Over and done with.  We picked OBI, likely under the impression that Julius was one more and done at the trading deadline. 

And we just scored Miles McBride at #36, to break in behind Derrick Rose and Kemba Walker over the next two years, so there is recompense and redemption after all.  Is Deuce another Tyrese?  Different folks, different strokes, but let's just say, Deuce has a world of talent and competitive fire and will not be tasked with being our savior. 

And we still have Obi AND Julius. 

Things change. 

Might this be a situation such as where we once had both Bill Cartwright AND Patrick Ewing? 

Could be. 

A nice problem to have, in any event. 

Again, your PRESUMPTION is that Obi is strictly a backup PF, and there are no other paths he and the Knicks might pursue, and that any other scenarios, such as a 5-4 with Julius, are doomed to fail, likewise his ability to guard 3's.  And you base these conclusions on his rookie year?  Perhaps you might want to extend Obi and the Knicks a second year to grow.  RJ Barrett certainly seemed rather limited based upon naught but the sampling of his rookie year. 

Yes, Siakam is a significant talent, but he is wildly overpaid.  And your bold projection of him as a SF would seem to be at odds with your notion that Obi is categorically unsuited to play at the 3-spot.  Let alone committing 33-35-37 million to him, as Toronto has.  Or as you prpoose WE MIGHT.  Which is simply hilarious given your predilection for critiquing each and every long term contract that comes down the pike...Hey, I WOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN Them THAT LONG TERM MONEY.  Uh huh.

I feel that Siakam surely deserves another season to prove that his injuries and post-Kawhi leadership meltdowns were not defining moments.  Much as Obi deserves a second season to mature under Thibs.  Or that Obi only playing 20 minutes a night in his second season would be an enduring mark of Cain upon him and the Knicks moving forward. PLEASE. 

Unlikely you and I are going to find common ground on this.   

[kidcarter8]

Same guy hearing this rumor:



CAVALIERS GET
F GORDAN HAYWARD

HORNETS GET
F LARRY NANCE
G/F ISAAC OKORO
CEDI OSMAN
2022 SECOND ROUND PICK (VIA HOU)

[kidcarter8]

I guess I am the only one OK with Toppin being MOSTLY  a second unit player as long as we have Julius.

Whatever...

[facilitatorn]

Again, the problem is that ObiT's upside on these Knix is as a 15 min a night backup PF.  No matter how good he does, how does he get beyond that?  How does he reach a high level limited like that?  Sure, maybe you find an extra 5-7 mins if he's playing real well.  But that slots him in as an SF where he is less likely to shine, or Julius tries to play some C.  Simply ObiT likely has more value as a 30 min a night starter elsewhere ...

We’ve got three seasons of Obi for Taj money, then we have to make a decision. At what we’re paying him, 15 -20 quality minutes a night is good value. Is it maximum value? There will be all sorts of opinions on that. It also gives him time to become effective on both ends at 2 or 3 positions by the time he’s getting ready to ask the team to quadruple or quintuple his salary, depending on the state of the market that far out. He has great teammates and coaches to work with. He just needs to get it done. Regularly outperforming Randle in a year or two within the minutes he gets is his key to internal promotion and speeding up the timeline to his payday and the team’s decisions about utilizing his value. It’s a tall order and a goal he may never achieve.

It you can find clips of him getting swatted and blowing layups in Vegas, you might have doubts about his immediate value as a first stringer and think he still may have some work to do, as good as he’s ready to be right now as a backup.

[kidcarter8]

I guess I am the only one OK with Toppin being MOSTLY  a second unit player as long as we have Julius.

Whatever...

I would also add - as a statement and a question -

What we have done SINCE choosing Toppin over Haliburton should be OK with you masses of Ty fans - seeing as Miles may not be here - IQ may not be as well - had we passed on Obi for TH.

ISN'T IT?

True, no telling what we'd have done with the other picks but if you like Leon's body of work there really should be no more crying over who we selected at #8 in 2020.

[bankshot1]

I think Coach Udoka has it right -

Less HERO BALL from Brown and Tatum - more sharing - team play.

Celtics basketball, the best Celtic's basketball, as written by Red was, make the next pass.

The lack of ball movement the last 2-3 years, was largely a function of KI being hurt, Gordo, a decent facilitating wing being hurt, and Kemba playing on one-leg and then taking the next game off.

They've needed a full-time PG to keep the ball and offense flowing. It was not the Celtic basketball I've seen win championships.

I hope between Smart, Prichard and Schroder they have the answer. And having a decent passing big in AL will also help.

Chip-As for Kemba as a Knick, unless he's close to 100% he's going to be tough to watch. He could not jump, accelerate to the hoop or play D last year. He was far from the only problem in a shit-storm of a bad year, but he hurt the Celts last year.

As for Ainge, I thought he was a pretty good GM, but may have aged the past couple of years, and had enough of dealing with current day NBA players and needed to step away. It was a good TO.

With just some half-decent luck Ainge could have gone to a couple of finals in the past few years. IMO he did a pretty good blowing up and then rebuilding the team.