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Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: February 15, 2022, 10:51:36 AM

[REDSTATEWARD]

Yes.   Here's my updated post...with a second edit...



Larry dodges real conversation. Anything that conflicts with his world view is verboten. Achtung, motherfucker.

You seem to bring a particular worldview to the knife-wielder case in question.   I didn't get anything in your many posts that suggested you wondered for even a minute if the shooter had alternatives.  Maybe Makhia was about to kill someone,  but I wouldn't mind some factfinding and context before I assume this was a legit use of force.  (full disclosure -- have not seen video,  will do so asap)

ETA -- the video released has had the shooting itself edited out,  because the local affiliate judged it too graphic to show on tv.   You hear shots,  but it's blacked out.

ETA (later)  --.found an unedited slomo version of the bodycam footage.   Yes,  sadly,  it looks like she was attacking with a knife and was mid-swing in the process of plunging it into the pink-clad girl who was shoved up against a car.   It does appear the knife would have gone in, without an immediate use of force.   It's horrific to watch.   And speaks to a fairly high level of rage... it's incredible,  there's a cop right there,  and she keeps right on, shifting her attack from one girl to the other.

To compound the tragedy.
The victim may have been the 911 caller that sent police to the scene to break up the fight.

[josh]

In 1866, one year after the 13 Amendment was ratified (the amendment that ended slavery), Alabama, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi, Florida, Tennessee, and South Carolina began to lease out convicts for labor (peonage). This made the business of arresting Blacks very lucrative, which is why hundreds of White men were hired by these states as police officers. Their primary responsibility was to search out and arrest Blacks who were in violation of Black Codes. Once arrested, these men, women and children would be leased to plantations where they would harvest cotton, tobacco, sugar cane. Or they would be leased to work at coal mines, or railroad companies. The owners of these businesses would pay the state for every prisoner who worked for them; prison labor.

It is believed that after the passing of the 13th Amendment, more than 800,000 Blacks were part of the system of peonage, or re-enslavement through the prison system. Peonage didn’t end until after World War II began, around 1940.

This is how it happened.

The 13th Amendment declared that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." (Ratified in 1865)

Did you catch that? It says, “neither slavery nor involuntary servitude could occur except as a punishment for a crime". Lawmakers used this phrase to make petty offenses crimes. When Blacks were found guilty of committing these crimes, they were imprisoned and then leased out to the same businesses that lost slaves after the passing of the 13th Amendment. This system of convict labor is called peonage.

The majority of White Southern farmers and business owners hated the 13th Amendment because it took away slave labor. As a way to appease them, the federal government turned a blind eye when southern states used this clause in the 13th Amendment to establish laws called Black Codes. Here are some examples of Black Codes:

In Louisiana, it was illegal for a Black man to preach to Black congregations without special permission in writing from the president of the police. If caught, he could be arrested and fined. If he could not pay the fines, which were unbelievably high, he would be forced to work for an individual, or go to jail or prison where he would work until his debt was paid off.

If a Black person did not have a job, he or she could be arrested and imprisoned on the charge of vagrancy or loitering. 

This next Black Code will make you cringe. In South Carolina, if the parent of a Black child was considered vagrant, the judicial system allowed the police and/or other government agencies to “apprentice” the child to an "employer". Males could be held until the age of 21, and females could be held until they were 18. Their owner had the legal right to inflict punishment on the child for disobedience, and to recapture them if they ran away.

This (peonage) is an example of systemic racism - Racism established and perpetuated by government systems. Slavery was made legal by the U.S. Government. Segregation, Black Codes, Jim Crow and peonage were all made legal by the government, and upheld by the judicial system. These acts of racism were built into the system, which is where the term “Systemic Racism” is derived.

This is the part of "Black History" that most of us were never told about. - Chuck Allen

[LarryBnDC]

Yep

[facilitatorn]

If the slavers stay factional and keep infighting this will be a good time for justice to gain ground.

http://youtu.be/EwaEohufxdI

[barton]

Yes.   Here's my updated post...with a second edit...

Did the footage you found show a longer timeframe? I caught the affiliate link and it was too tightly packed to give context. 15-20 seconds of lead up would clarify things a lot.

Sorry, Fac, I'm so slow to reply.   Agree.  The footage that the PD released is what I saw and it seems to drop you into the middle of things,  so it's hard to get context.   As Larry pointed out,  you don't hear the cop using "command voice" during the segment we get.  I'm not sure there was much time for any coherent verbal response.   And it is impossible to call any outcome "the right thing. "  What were the girl-in-pink's chances,  if he'd fired in the air,  or at Makhia's feet,  or rushed in with a baton?   It was happening so fast,  and I can honestly say I have little concept of how you'd train someone to handle nanosecond judgement calls like that.   

[REDSTATEWARD]

In 1866, one year after the 13 Amendment was ratified (the amendment that ended slavery), Alabama, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi, Florida, Tennessee, and South Carolina began to lease out convicts for labor (peonage). This made the business of arresting Blacks very lucrative, which is why hundreds of White men were hired by these states as police officers. Their primary responsibility was to search out and arrest Blacks who were in violation of Black Codes. Once arrested, these men, women and children would be leased to plantations where they would harvest cotton, tobacco, sugar cane. Or they would be leased to work at coal mines, or railroad companies. The owners of these businesses would pay the state for every prisoner who worked for them; prison labor.

It is believed that after the passing of the 13th Amendment, more than 800,000 Blacks were part of the system of peonage, or re-enslavement through the prison system. Peonage didn’t end until after World War II began, around 1940.

This is how it happened.

The 13th Amendment declared that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." (Ratified in 1865)

Did you catch that? It says, “neither slavery nor involuntary servitude could occur except as a punishment for a crime". Lawmakers used this phrase to make petty offenses crimes. When Blacks were found guilty of committing these crimes, they were imprisoned and then leased out to the same businesses that lost slaves after the passing of the 13th Amendment. This system of convict labor is called peonage.

The majority of White Southern farmers and business owners hated the 13th Amendment because it took away slave labor. As a way to appease them, the federal government turned a blind eye when southern states used this clause in the 13th Amendment to establish laws called Black Codes. Here are some examples of Black Codes:

In Louisiana, it was illegal for a Black man to preach to Black congregations without special permission in writing from the president of the police. If caught, he could be arrested and fined. If he could not pay the fines, which were unbelievably high, he would be forced to work for an individual, or go to jail or prison where he would work until his debt was paid off.

If a Black person did not have a job, he or she could be arrested and imprisoned on the charge of vagrancy or loitering. 

This next Black Code will make you cringe. In South Carolina, if the parent of a Black child was considered vagrant, the judicial system allowed the police and/or other government agencies to “apprentice” the child to an "employer". Males could be held until the age of 21, and females could be held until they were 18. Their owner had the legal right to inflict punishment on the child for disobedience, and to recapture them if they ran away.

This (peonage) is an example of systemic racism - Racism established and perpetuated by government systems. Slavery was made legal by the U.S. Government. Segregation, Black Codes, Jim Crow and peonage were all made legal by the government, and upheld by the judicial system. These acts of racism were built into the system, which is where the term “Systemic Racism” is derived.

This is the part of "Black History" that most of us were never told about. - Chuck Allen

This post is so stupid.
Pay attention and parse the phrase

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." (Ratified in 1865)

If Josh is a teacher he must teach stupidness.

[barton]

You deny that penal servitude effectively perpetuated slavery for Southern blacks?   That blacks were selectively targeted and rounded up for petty offenses?  These are well-established facts.   What's "stupid" about an historical account of peonage and Black Codes?   

[REDSTATEWARD]

You deny that penal servitude effectively perpetuated slavery for Southern blacks?   That blacks were selectively targeted and rounded up for petty offenses?  These are well-established facts.   What's "stupid" about an historical account of peonage and Black Codes?

Pay attention to what I wrote.

[kidcarter8]

Yes.   Here's my updated post...with a second edit...

Did the footage you found show a longer timeframe? I caught the affiliate link and it was too tightly packed to give context. 15-20 seconds of lead up would clarify things a lot.

Sorry, Fac, I'm so slow to reply.   Agree.  The footage that the PD released is what I saw and it seems to drop you into the middle of things,  so it's hard to get context.   As Larry pointed out,  you don't hear the cop using "command voice" during the segment we get.  I'm not sure there was much time for any coherent verbal response.   And it is impossible to call any outcome "the right thing. "  What were the girl-in-pink's chances,  if he'd fired in the air,  or at Makhia's feet,  or rushed in with a baton?   It was happening so fast,  and I can honestly say I have little concept of how you'd train someone to handle nanosecond judgement calls like that.   

There was a press conference where much of this was answered

Included was the question of why cops generally (and in this case in particular) do not shoot at legs.

[LarryBnDC]

Yes.   Here's my updated post...with a second edit...

Did the footage you found show a longer timeframe? I caught the affiliate link and it was too tightly packed to give context. 15-20 seconds of lead up would clarify things a lot.

Sorry, Fac, I'm so slow to reply.   Agree.  The footage that the PD released is what I saw and it seems to drop you into the middle of things,  so it's hard to get context.   As Larry pointed out,  you don't hear the cop using "command voice" during the segment we get.  I'm not sure there was much time for any coherent verbal response.   And it is impossible to call any outcome "the right thing. "  What were the girl-in-pink's chances,  if he'd fired in the air,  or at Makhia's feet,  or rushed in with a baton?   It was happening so fast,  and I can honestly say I have little concept of how you'd train someone to handle nanosecond judgement calls like that.   

If he had time to say “Hey hey hey hey Get down get down get down...” he had time say “STOP! DROP THAT KNIFE NOW!”

The command voice can both seize control of a situation and de-escalate same.

Seen it in practice many many times.

[barton]

You deny that penal servitude effectively perpetuated slavery for Southern blacks?   That blacks were selectively targeted and rounded up for petty offenses?  These are well-established facts.   What's "stupid" about an historical account of peonage and Black Codes?

Pay attention to what I wrote.

You said that historical account was stupid.   I asked you why.   All we've got is your assertion and your quote of the 13th.  But what is at issue is how that one clause was interpreted by Southern lawmakers.  And how that interpretation led to racially biased systems of penal servitude.   What's your argument?   

[barton]

Yes.   Here's my updated post...with a second edit...

Did the footage you found show a longer timeframe? I caught the affiliate link and it was too tightly packed to give context. 15-20 seconds of lead up would clarify things a lot.

Sorry, Fac, I'm so slow to reply.   Agree.  The footage that the PD released is what I saw and it seems to drop you into the middle of things,  so it's hard to get context.   As Larry pointed out,  you don't hear the cop using "command voice" during the segment we get.  I'm not sure there was much time for any coherent verbal response.   And it is impossible to call any outcome "the right thing. "  What were the girl-in-pink's chances,  if he'd fired in the air,  or at Makhia's feet,  or rushed in with a baton?   It was happening so fast,  and I can honestly say I have little concept of how you'd train someone to handle nanosecond judgement calls like that.   

There was a press conference where much of this was answered

Included was the question of why cops generally (and in this case in particular) do not shoot at legs.

I'm sure there are reasons.   Harder to hit a leg,  harder to stop an assailant?  Shots fired in the air lack deterrent effect?  I've  heard this before.   And there may be stats to back it up.   I think it's a good trend if body cams stay on,  and police are as transparent as possible when tragedies happen.   But it still needs to be asked if this tragedy had to happen. 

[Yankguy1]

I believe a great many police departments, if not most, prohibit their officers from firing warning shots and train them not to do so.

[REDSTATEWARD]

Yes.   Here's my updated post...with a second edit...

Did the footage you found show a longer timeframe? I caught the affiliate link and it was too tightly packed to give context. 15-20 seconds of lead up would clarify things a lot.

Sorry, Fac, I'm so slow to reply.   Agree.  The footage that the PD released is what I saw and it seems to drop you into the middle of things,  so it's hard to get context.   As Larry pointed out,  you don't hear the cop using "command voice" during the segment we get.  I'm not sure there was much time for any coherent verbal response.   And it is impossible to call any outcome "the right thing. "  What were the girl-in-pink's chances,  if he'd fired in the air,  or at Makhia's feet,  or rushed in with a baton?   It was happening so fast,  and I can honestly say I have little concept of how you'd train someone to handle nanosecond judgement calls like that.   

There was a press conference where much of this was answered

Included was the question of why cops generally (and in this case in particular) do not shoot at legs.

I'm sure there are reasons.   Harder to hit a leg,  harder to stop an assailant?  Shots fired in the air lack deterrent effect?  I've  heard this before.   And there may be stats to back it up.   I think it's a good trend if body cams stay on,  and police are as transparent as possible when tragedies happen.   But it still needs to be asked if this tragedy had to happen.

Huh?

[kidcarter8]

I think we should stop calling them tragedies.