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Poll

When do yo think the MLB regular season will start?

On time
- 1 (33.3%)
Late, but on or before April 15th
- 0 (0%)
April 16th through April 30th
- 0 (0%)
May 1st through May 15th
- 2 (66.7%)
May 16th through May 31st
- 0 (0%)
Jun1st through June 15th
- 0 (0%)
June 16th through June 30th
- 0 (0%)
After June 30th
- 0 (0%)
No Season
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: February 13, 2022, 10:41:25 PM


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Author Topic: Major League Baseball  (Read 389074 times)

Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3990 on: December 31, 2020, 05:00:01 PM »

Which one is the Hall of Famer?

Player X  WAR 36.5 AB 7755 H2016. HR138  BA.260

R769. RBI 853  SB 27

OBP.299 SLG .367 OPS.667 OPS+ 84


OR...Player Y   WAR 68.2 AB 8058  H 2170  HR 126 BA.269

R 1338  RBI 885 SB 232 OBP .366 SLG .377 OPS .743 OPS+ 99


OR...Player Z.  WAR 55.4 AB 8498 H 2461 HR 377 BA .290

R 1320 RBI 1518 SB 94 OBP .356 SLG.500 OPS .855 OPS+123

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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3991 on: December 31, 2020, 05:02:55 PM »

probably Pedro

then Koufax

Pedro because of his relative longevity and excellence

YMMV

See? You couldn't do it. You had to go look up WHO the stats were from. And not sure how "relative longevity" comes from Pedro?

HEH

Did what?

forget what I knew?

I didn't need to look up stats.

When you mention Kaat a couple of days ago I looked at his stats, so the 3 pitchers you decided to comp were known.

Its not my fault you suck at presenting a persuasive argument.



I didn't make an argument. I posed a question to the group.

Most would understand the difference between an argument and a question.

But you? Maybe not.

And I answered your question

Pedro, Koufax and then Kaat.

Utley you've been making an argument for Moyer for years.

and have persuaded no one.

a few days ago you promoted his artistry and charitable works and outstanding character as reasons to promote his HoF candidacy.

It was not a very strong argument for his case.

And you comped him to Kaat.

Katt as posted was a far better pitcher and a case can be made for him in the HoF.

I took your 1,2,3 comp as a rhetorical device to further your beliefs.

An ulterior motive as it were.

Which is fine.

But I answered your question.

Kaat was a pretty good pitcher, maybe a HoF pitcer, but he was not remotely as talented as Pedro or Koufax. He's not in the same discussion as those guys.

YMMV

And fwiw, in a small community that is populated mostly by reasonably knowledgable baseball fans many of whom watched baseball in the 60s, those stats were suffficent to ID Pedro and Koufax, two of the greatest pitchers ever.

again, YMMV

Some people have to work at missing out what's in front of them. But you don't. You miss things pretty much all the time.

SSDD

I filter out most of the idiocy and laugh at the rest.

I'm not sure what your problem is, I answered your hypothetical and then some.

As did others.

Perhaps as you have not persuaaded others to your point of view, you might consider the weaknesses of your postion and consider other more rational positions.

Just a suggestion.
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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3992 on: December 31, 2020, 05:07:26 PM »

Good work boz

there's a tell on that question.

and E probably will be, but lets make it clear he's no Jamie Moyer!
I think 3000 k gets you in, unless you are either a PED user or a raging asshole. Like C.

How about 4500 IP? Seems to me that should be a lock for the HOF. Sure, it doesn't have that joyous fascist ring to it that 3000 K's has as an individual accomplishment, but it sure means a helluvalot to the TEAM; preserving the pen, lengthening out the use of starting staff, adding value to the franchise, etc.

All worthwhile goals, but without excellence in performance, they are not really considerations for the HoF.

Maybe for the Hall of Innings Eaters or Hall of end of the bench long relievers
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Hairy Lime

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3993 on: December 31, 2020, 05:35:04 PM »

Which one is the Hall of Famer?

Player X  WAR 36.5 AB 7755 H2016. HR138  BA.260

R769. RBI 853  SB 27

OBP.299 SLG .367 OPS.667 OPS+ 84


OR...Player Y   WAR 68.2 AB 8058  H 2170  HR 126 BA.269

R 1338  RBI 885 SB 232 OBP .366 SLG .377 OPS .743 OPS+ 99


OR...Player Z.  WAR 55.4 AB 8498 H 2461 HR 377 BA .290

R 1320 RBI 1518 SB 94 OBP .356 SLG.500 OPS .855 OPS+123
The one who hit the dramatic World Series Home Run!

The Hall is not exclusively an offensive award.
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josh

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3994 on: December 31, 2020, 05:35:48 PM »

Which one is the Hall of Famer?

Player X  WAR 36.5 AB 7755 H2016. HR138  BA.260

R769. RBI 853  SB 27

OBP.299 SLG .367 OPS.667 OPS+ 84


OR...Player Y   WAR 68.2 AB 8058  H 2170  HR 126 BA.269

R 1338  RBI 885 SB 232 OBP .366 SLG .377 OPS .743 OPS+ 99


OR...Player Z.  WAR 55.4 AB 8498 H 2461 HR 377 BA .290

R 1320 RBI 1518 SB 94 OBP .356 SLG.500 OPS .855 OPS+123
The one who hit the dramatic World Series Home Run!

The Hall is not exclusively an offensive award.

The way it is used can often be offensive.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3995 on: December 31, 2020, 06:33:40 PM »

Which one is the Hall of Famer?

Player X  WAR 36.5 AB 7755 H2016. HR138  BA.260

R769. RBI 853  SB 27

OBP.299 SLG .367 OPS.667 OPS+ 84


OR...Player Y   WAR 68.2 AB 8058  H 2170  HR 126 BA.269

R 1338  RBI 885 SB 232 OBP .366 SLG .377 OPS .743 OPS+ 99


OR...Player Z.  WAR 55.4 AB 8498 H 2461 HR 377 BA .290

R 1320 RBI 1518 SB 94 OBP .356 SLG.500 OPS .855 OPS+123

I think hiding facts like Gold Gloves is insulting
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3996 on: December 31, 2020, 06:47:17 PM »

Which one is the Hall of Famer?

Player X  WAR 36.5 AB 7755 H2016. HR138  BA.260

R769. RBI 853  SB 27

OBP.299 SLG .367 OPS.667 OPS+ 84


OR...Player Y   WAR 68.2 AB 8058  H 2170  HR 126 BA.269

R 1338  RBI 885 SB 232 OBP .366 SLG .377 OPS .743 OPS+ 99


OR...Player Z.  WAR 55.4 AB 8498 H 2461 HR 377 BA .290

R 1320 RBI 1518 SB 94 OBP .356 SLG.500 OPS .855 OPS+123
The one who hit the dramatic World Series Home Run!

The Hall is not exclusively an offensive award.

Actually X and Y are both in the Hall, while Z likely won't get in because unlike X and Y he didn't kiss the writers' fat, freeloading asses.

The real problem with the HALL of BASEBALL WRITERS FUCKING THINGS UP is that there are no standards for selection. NONE.

There are guidelines, but no standards.



Kind of like the way Trump hands out pardons. You get a pardon, and you get a pardon, and not you. You get in the Hall, and you, but not you.

Consider how Clemens and Bonds still might get in, but Manny Ramirez basically has no shot.

It's the same thing.  The Hall of Bullshit.

And I am being kind.

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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3997 on: December 31, 2020, 07:17:23 PM »

Which one is the Hall of Famer?

Player X  WAR 36.5 AB 7755 H2016. HR138  BA.260

R769. RBI 853  SB 27

OBP.299 SLG .367 OPS.667 OPS+ 84


OR...Player Y   WAR 68.2 AB 8058  H 2170  HR 126 BA.269

R 1338  RBI 885 SB 232 OBP .366 SLG .377 OPS .743 OPS+ 99


OR...Player Z.  WAR 55.4 AB 8498 H 2461 HR 377 BA .290

R 1320 RBI 1518 SB 94 OBP .356 SLG.500 OPS .855 OPS+123
The one who hit the dramatic World Series Home Run!

The Hall is not exclusively an offensive award.

Actually X and Y are both in the Hall, while Z likely won't get in because unlike X and Y he didn't kiss the writers' fat, freeloading asses.

The real problem with the HALL of BASEBALL WRITERS FUCKING THINGS UP is that there are no standards for selection. NONE.

There are guidelines, but no standards.



Kind of like the way Trump hands out pardons. You get a pardon, and you get a pardon, and not you. You get in the Hall, and you, but not you.

Consider how Clemens and Bonds still might get in, but Manny Ramirez basically has no shot.

It's the same thing.  The Hall of Bullshit.

And I am being kind.

Its nothing like the way Trump hands out pardons. Nothing.

There are about 400 voters in the BBWAA, covering different teams, or baseball in general, bringing different perspectives to the process. AND HoF requirements say that HoF entry requires 75% of the voters agreeing.

Its an election requiring a super-super majority not the whims of an autocratic despot.

And I like that a light hitting shortstop who was a fielding wizard can be a serious candidate soley on the basis of his fielding. And if 75% agree that a light hitting shortstop was HoF worthy, that seems a far cry from an autcratic decree.

I like that we can overlay our observations and knowledge and put performance into context.

The writers are the most objective, least conflicted, and most diverse voting body and you've never nominated another better process than 400 independent voices voting.

You are not being kind.

Right now I am.



.

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 07:20:12 PM by bankshot1 »
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kidcarter8

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3998 on: December 31, 2020, 08:44:36 PM »

Ozzie Smith was a solid offensive talent
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #3999 on: December 31, 2020, 08:45:38 PM »

The writers are the most objective, least conflicted, and most diverse voting body and you've never nominated another better process than 400 independent voices voting.

ASk Jim Rice about their "objective" nature and their "conflicted" nature and their "diverse voting body".

And I HAVE nominated a better process in the past, here, but I am not taking the time to go back and find it, since that was long ago and before this place had its technical revisions.

The FACT is that I nominated a process that clearly delineated a rubric for induction for each position on the field. If players knew exactly how to get in the Hall of Fame, it would be on them and their actual performance that got them in, not the same old bullshit that passes for "objectivity".

The comparison to Trump is that didn't use a legitimate process for his pardons, because they don't have a legitimate process for induction because they don't have any real standards for what makes a HOFer and what doesn't.

That's not debatable.

In the mean time...

I wish a happy new year to you and to yours, jackass.
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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #4000 on: December 31, 2020, 09:22:25 PM »

The writers are the most objective, least conflicted, and most diverse voting body and you've never nominated another better process than 400 independent voices voting.

ASk Jim Rice about their "objective" nature and their "conflicted" nature and their "diverse voting body".

And I HAVE nominated a better process in the past, here, but I am not taking the time to go back and find it, since that was long ago and before this place had its technical revisions.

The FACT is that I nominated a process that clearly delineated a rubric for induction for each position on the field. If players knew exactly how to get in the Hall of Fame, it would be on them and their actual performance that got them in, not the same old bullshit that passes for "objectivity".

The comparison to Trump is that didn't use a legitimate process for his pardons, because they don't have a legitimate process for induction because they don't have any real standards for what makes a HOFer and what doesn't.

That's not debatable.

In the mean time...

I wish a happy new year to you and to yours, jackass.

There are 400 independent voters making their own independent assessments of Hall worthiness. There is no strict template. But we usually have a general agreement of who's Hall worthy. and we get disagreements on the border line guys. And positions shift over time.

That you state its illegitmate is worthless. The Hall is pretty representative of the best who played the game.

And Trump has used the same process all other presidents have used.

But he abused the process presumably for his own ends.

There is nothing to suggest there is a vast BBWAA conspiracy to rig the HoF elections.

The most recent outrage came when the vets comm of 16 led by Reinsdorf and LaRussa pushed Harold Baines into the Hall.

and most observers thought it was bullshit and that Baines wasn't a HoF guy.

He didn't get in on the writers vote, but rather on his former manager and the owner of the team he played for.

Reflected glory for them, conflicts of interest.


The fact you think its not debatable, as you lose the debate is pretty funny.

Its like kid stating "no" thinking its the definitive answer to anything, or Red posting "LOL" when he has no facts to support his baseless bullshit.

It's a childish response.

The writers can nominate 0, 1 or up to 10 (IIRC) every year.

They are the best combination of least conflicted, objective, most knowledgable, most diverse and independent body to seek a large consensus of who does or doesn't belong in the HoF. And every one of your suggestions, former players, managers, guys in the game, etc. were proven to more conflicted than the BBWAA. (your suggestion as I recall was pre-Baines and the outrage over the expllicit conflict of interest)

And HNY to you as well.

Btw, what standard are you relying upon to continually suggest a wholly mediocre pitcher like Jamie Moyer, who only received 2% of the required votes, is a HoF pitcher?

At best he is a somewhat unique example that would fall outside of a standard that you seem to demand of the process.

98% of the writers have voted he falls outside anything remotely close to a standard.

Do you understand the intellectual hole you fell into?

Probably not.

Happy New Year.

HEH
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 09:28:50 PM by bankshot1 »
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bankshot1

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #4001 on: December 31, 2020, 09:37:31 PM »

Ozzie Smith was a solid offensive talent

Ozzie's a HoFer. But if there's room in the Hall for Ozzie (.260 hitter, no power) there should be room for Omar V.

I think they are pretty comparable, but Ozzie had better marketing and a great flip.
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josh

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #4002 on: December 31, 2020, 09:39:16 PM »

I think the writers are nothing like Trump.

And Trump did not use the same method every other president has used for a significant chunk of the already issued pardons and you know there are many more to come.

But I think the Hall entrance criteria could be significantly tightened. And yeah, writers have biases - they are human.

None of that makes Jamie Moyer HoF worthy, based on the standards of those already in and those largely out - if one wishes to admit another 20-30 pitchers who are more deserving, first, then sure, we can have that conversation.

I think Kaat's Gold Gloves work with his performance to put him in.
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kidcarter8

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #4003 on: December 31, 2020, 09:57:36 PM »

Besting Koufax in a World Series game qualifies as a bonus as well

Only made postseason 4 years - which might tell you that had he played for better teams Kaat may very well have won 300
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Hamilton Samuels

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Re: Major League Baseball
« Reply #4004 on: January 01, 2021, 01:17:51 PM »

You know banks has had his ass kicked when he posts 3500 off topic words laced with insults regarding posters who aren't even in the conversation.

Heh


The HOF simply has no true standards for admission; an irrefutable fact.

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