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Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: February 13, 2022, 10:41:25 PM

[josh]

List for us the "standards" you would see enacted that would put Moyer even on the CUSP of Hall induction.

Thanks

I know you've been duped by the smokescreen of a blithering banks, but I did not make the argument that there was a standard for his admission.
...

WHAT standards would you like to see for third base? SS? 1B? etc...

That's the essential question being ignored by the ignorant bankshithead.

And by you, as far as I can tell. You were asked a direct question.

You could have made it an answer to what standards you would like to see for pitcher, regardless of Moyer, but you chose not to.

You could have answered the question you asked, about standards for the position players. You chose not to.

I will take a pass at it at some point, perhaps, but since you are the one who is complaining about them and who keeps insisting that Moyer belongs, it would have seemed like the sort of thing you would answer, not just ask.

[Hamilton Samuels]

Unless you're going to do an entirely statistical evaluation[/b]...

And we can. There are enough guys in the HOF at each position to do so.

Take these stats from HOF 2b-men:

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

Could we not just take that list and create a set of standards for admission to the Hall, today?

I think so.

Without too much analysis of that stat set, it seems that a player with 2200 hits, .280 BA, .425 SLUG, and 1300 R ought to get him in, assuming he played defense better than Steve Sax. Add points for ASG appearances, Silver Slugger awards and at least one MVP top 5 (albeit these are subjective awards) and I think he should be pretty much a lock. You can add in whatever other meaningful stats should be considered, and maybe bonus points for every season played beyond 10, or beyond 1600 Career games, or seasons leading the league at his position in any stat category. If he played at more than one position, go with his dominant position, but then also consider other players who are in the Hall who played more than one position (who are also not named Babe Ruth?).

I'm just going with a small example to make a point. And to be clear the point is not about this player. It's about considering the fact that we have enough players at each position who already in the HOF to determine who should be put into it, now.

Take this guy who played 17 years in the bigs, primarily at second, but also at first and third.

He had 2461 H, .290 BA, .500 SLUG, 1320 R, one MVP season, and 5 times All-star, 4 Silver Sluggers.


He's not in, but he has been on the Hall of Fame ballot for the BBWAA since 2014 and has yet to get even as much as 28% of the vote.

But, if you look at the stats of who is in, he's pretty much right in the thick of that bunch. Add in that he holds the career record for homers by a second baseman (FTR, every player who has led his position in career home runs is in the Hall of Fame), and it seems more than a little odd that this guy is getting only 28% voter support.   

But why does he need that support? Why does he have to appeal to a group of writers?

Why doesn't his record speak for itself, given the collective records of the current HOFer second basemen?

That's the problem, especially now. It's just an arcane and outdated way of putting players in the HOF.










 

[kidcarter8]

WAR7

Jeff Kent - 35.8

Robbie Alomar - 43.3

[kidcarter8]

Is D J LeMehui on the HOF track right now, in your opinion?

(.300 5 times, 2 batting titles, WAR 7 is sub 24 - but sure to improve - will be 32 this year)
edit - add 3 GG and 2 top 10 MVP

He's a guy who could regress late in career but hang on for those 2200, 1300 numbers

[Hamilton Samuels]

List for us the "standards" you would see enacted that would put Moyer even on the CUSP of Hall induction.

Thanks

I know you've been duped by the smokescreen of a blithering banks, but I did not make the argument that there was a standard for his admission.
...

WHAT standards would you like to see for third base? SS? 1B? etc...

That's the essential question being ignored by the ignorant bankshithead.

And by you, as far as I can tell. You were asked a direct question.

You could have made it an answer to what standards you would like to see for pitcher, regardless of Moyer, but you chose not to.

You could have answered the question you asked, about standards for the position players. You chose not to.

I will take a pass at it at some point, perhaps, but since you are the one who is complaining about them and who keeps insisting that Moyer belongs, it would have seemed like the sort of thing you would answer, not just ask.

I see you are still confused. And also, you are guilty of being unable to see through the smoke.

See my latest post to clarify that my problem is about the HOF process of selection---not Jamie Moyer. Jamie Moyer fits the HOF under its current "rules" and "Standards"---as arbitrary as they are.

Using the current HOF "standards", I'd make the case for Moyer as being a modern day Cal Ripken of pitchers. His durability and his pitching in 4 different decades are bonuses, but also, when you look at who is in, we can find places stat wise where he belongs in that group.

Look at all the pitchers in the HOF. There are 81 of them.

Only 29 have more Ws than Moyer (269). Only 30 have more IP (4231), Moyer has a better WAR than 23 of these pitchers, including Jack Morris, Catfish Hunter, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Dizzy Dean. Only 13 of those 81 HOF pitchers have started more games than Moyer (638). Only 19 have pitched in more games than Moyer. 28 of those pitchers have a worse Winning percentage than Moyer. Yes, he would have the worst ERA of any of them. Jack Morris has the worst with 3.90. and Moyer's career is 4.25, but there are 23 pitchers in this group who gave up more hits than Moyer (Tom Glavine, Robin Roberts, Bert Blyleven, Greg Maddux, Warren Spahn). 13 of them gave up more runs than Moyer (Don Sutton, Phil Neikro, Gaylord Perry, Steve Carlton). He's 38th in Batters Faced, and he had only 8 more ER than Don Sutton, who pitched 2 less seasons than Moyer.

Going with Jaffe's JAWS method, which is closest to looking at the who is in and who ain't stat analysis, he's not a HOFer.

Going by the current "methodology" of the BBWAA, he's vote-worthy, and a solid case can be made that he belongs.

I hope this answers your question and allows you and others to focus on the real topic at hand, which is NOT Jamie Moyer.

[Hamilton Samuels]

Is D J LeMehui on the HOF track right now, in your opinion?

(.300 5 times, 2 batting titles, WAR 7 is sub 24 - but sure to improve - will be 32 this year)
edit - add 3 GG and 2 top 10 MVP

He's a guy who could regress late in career but hang on for those 2200, 1300 numbers

Only time will tell. Does Kirby Puckett get in without his tragedy?

[josh]

See my latest post to clarify that my problem is about the HOF process of selection

I like your latest (before this) post.

[kidcarter8]

Is D J LeMehui on the HOF track right now, in your opinion?

(.300 5 times, 2 batting titles, WAR 7 is sub 24 - but sure to improve - will be 32 this year)
edit - add 3 GG and 2 top 10 MVP

He's a guy who could regress late in career but hang on for those 2200, 1300 numbers

Only time will tell. Does Kirby Puckett get in without his tragedy?

No doubt

[bankshot1]

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1347234421229969409?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1347234421229969409%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

According to Passan

The Francisco Lindor-to-the-Mets trade is being finalized, sources tell ESPN. This is going to happen. The first mega-move of the Steve Cohen era gives the team its new face.

Passan followed with

So far what we know of the New York-Cleveland blockbuster:

Mets get: SS Francisco Lindor and RHP Carlos Carrasco (as @Feinsand reported)

Cleveland gets: SS Andres Gimenez, RHP Josh Wolf, OF Isaiah Greene

[kidcarter8]

Yeah

Big news

Indians add Andres Jiminez!

[Hairy Lime]

I understand the key to the trade was Amex Rosario.  Big things expected.

If you do not love watching Frankie play you do not love baseball.

[bankshot1]

I understand the key to the trade was Amex Rosario.  Big things expected.

If you do not love watching Frankie play you do not love baseball.

Exactly.

The guy has fun playing ball and plays it so well.

He's fun to watch and has been a favorite of mine for years.

its the way I felt about Mookie, a real nice combo of excellence and enthusiasm for the game.

[Hamilton Samuels]

If the BBWAA takes seriously is character clause for admission to the HOF, this should disqualify this candidate:

In two weeks, three-time World Series champion Curt Schilling will find out if he will be inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame. For his sake, it’s a good thing the ballots had to be submitted by the end of 2020.

Following Wednesday’s riot at the U.S. Capitol Building, Schilling tweeted his support for those who participated in the insurrection.

“You cowards sat on your hands, did nothing while liberal trash looted rioted and burned for air Jordan’s and big screens, sit back, stfu, and watch folks start a confrontation for shit that matters like rights, democracy and the end of govt corruption. #itshappening”

Schilling sent out the tweet at 11:52 p.m., hours after the Trump supporters were cleared from the Capitol and Congress resumed the certification of the Electoral College votes. (By the way, did anyone see Schilling’s new handle on his verified Twitter account? “President Elect Curt Schilling.”

https://www.nj.com/yankees/2021/01/ex-red-sox-ace-curt-schilling-defends-trump-supporters-who-trashed-us-capitol.html

A total fucking asshole.

[bankshot1]

I think it funny that a Jersey paper, with a lot of of NY and Philly readers ID Schlling as "Ex-Red Sox Ace".

He was, but for less than half the 9 years he spent with the Phillies.

I feel unconfortable using politics as a screen for the HoF, but Schilling's far-right nuttiness and overt racism, might be a good exception.

I'd pass on him.

Clearly he was no Cal Ripken!

[kidcarter8]

I understand the key to the trade was Ame(d) Rosario.  Big things expected.

If you do not love watching Frankie play you do not love baseball.

Well, of course

Getting the real SS back was almost a necessity

Thay they also got a starting 2B?  Jackpot.

Good trade both ways

WOLF has a chance to be a righthanded Jamie Moyer.