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Who will win Game 5 of the NBA Finals?

Warriors
- 1 (33.3%)
Celtics
- 2 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: June 13, 2022, 11:38:11 PM


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Author Topic: Knicks  (Read 1192981 times)

Pharoah

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1485 on: October 27, 2018, 12:09:26 PM »

It's strange to see promise in a 28 point loss, but that's about what we got last night. The Knicks youth went neck and neck with the Warriors starting line-up for the better part of 3 quarters and the game only got out of hand in a fourth quarter while the kids were sitting. The bittersweet aspect of this game comes from the fact that the starting line-up didn't get a fair shot to win the game and then Fiz appeared to blame them for the blow out. But that first half of the statement is pretty big. The oldest player in the starting line-up was 26 year old Tim Hardaway and yet they hung with the defending champions to the point of fan frustration that they weren't relied upon sooner to close out that game. Let me admit, I don't think anything was stopping KD in God-mode, but any hope to have stopped his momentum would require the defensive minded kids being back out there. Let's go deeper:

Nickelina (Steph pronunciation): Frank Ntilikina's first start at PG, he had more TO's than Assists (3:2) and Steph Curry dropped 29 points...but he managed to give Knicks fans hope. For one, he put up 17 points on 6/11 from the field with 3 three pointers out of 7. In the first half where he got the bulk of his minutes, he went damn near point for point with Steph and dropped 13. Frank was aggressive as he's been in his career, scoring from three or on drives; catch and shoots or off the dribble. The low assists doesn't do justice to how well the ball moved with his new unit; but the 26 attempts from 3 for the starters is a good indication (38% accuracy on those attempts). Steph put up his numbers, but Frank was actually making him work just to get the ball. We all know how good Steph is, and Frank lost the defensive battle, but his ball denial and hustle were undeniable. Listen...it's this 20 year old kid's first start at PG in his career and we're in a tank season, this one performance where he was arguably our best player for chunks of time is enough to claim that starting spot for a season in my eyes. Let's see what he can become playing the role he was drafted to play. The frustrating bit? A season low in minutes with 26 in a game he'd made his mark on through 3 quarters.

THJ: Tim Hardaway has been pretty much locked in all season, but this was probably his most focused effort so far. He drove more often and limited the long, contested two pointers (they still happened but less often). Timmy also did a bit more creating, with some kickouts available on his drives where he showed faith in his teammates. 9/21 and 4/12 from the three point line for the scorer who dropped 24 points and 4 assists in a tough match-up with Klay. Even his defensive lapses felt less pronounced for much of the game as he thoroughly outplayed a quality two way guy like Thompson.

Dot:  Watching Dotson get his jumpers off even with just a little bit of space and playing with this confidence is a far cry even from his summer league performances. He started this one 0 for 6 but kept shooting and ended on a high note. He's playing at high speeds on both ends and his defense is as much a joy to watch as his shooting form. 5/12 from the field, 2/6 from 3 pumping in 12 points as a sophomore. Dot also led the starters in rebounds with 7. The kid is showing a ton of promise and putting together a nice run of consecutive quality performances.

Vonleh: The Vonleh/Robinson combo front court was surprisingly not too bad for spacing in this one. Vonleh knocking down a open three pointer early may have helped a bit and his ability to dribble the rock definitely helps him out in space. He's not a "force the issue" player which helps out a lot, as he moved the ball and tallied assists throughout the night. Most importantly, he's the dirty work guy. You'll catch him bumping guys and keeping them uncomfortable which works well as Mitch Robinson runs around looking for a shot to challenge. 7 pts, 5 boards, 4 assists and 2 steals off of 2/4 from the field in a relatively short 22 minutes run. He struggled a bit with Green, who was having a rare good shooting night, but Green shooting that well is an anomaly.

Mitch: I've mentioned this a few  times already but stat sheet and technique be damned, you can FEEL Mitch Robinson's presence whenever he's out there. The kid's motor was second to Dotson only last night and he did not back down from the GS trash talkers. He can suffer from being overpowered inside, but any other time he's out there changing shots or decisions from ball handlers. 7 points and 6 boards on 3/5 from the field and the guys that go heavy on tape can correct me if I'm wrong, but at least on first watch it felt like he was setting better screens last night. Now let's talk future, if he's able to co-exist with Vonleh and/or Kanter in effective line-ups than he will ABSOLUTELY co-exist with KP in the future. Let's hope it continues.

Burke: I feel like I'm gonna come across as a hater, but this felt like another one hot quarter performance from Burke while he struggled the rest of the way. It's just a lot easier to give a pass to when he's off the bench commanding touches with a lesser supporting cast that could actually use his attacking style. Burke's third quarter was really impressive and he shot the three ball damn well, but Fiz hung him out to dry by leaving him in the game too long in that fourth. 22 minutes that shoulda been 18 minutes imo; 5/12 shooting and three of the makes were from long range (out of 7). He also added 2 assists and boards without his defensive limitations standing out much, especially promising because he matched up with Steph Curry plenty. I think this is his real role and he can thrive in it, but Fiz has to know when to pull the plug and when to ride the wave. That may take some trial and error.

Mario: Hezonja is frustrating in that he can come out and show so much promise one night and then float through the next. 6 points, 2 assists and 2 boards in 18 minutes on an inefficient 3/9 from the field including 0/4 from three. He just never made his presence really felt, but with a whole new unit around him that may have contributed to the issue. Combine that chemistry shift with the fact that he has a lot of talent means I'll try to stay patient.

Trier: Over 16 minutes, Allonzo Trier got 3 attempts off and made 1 to put up 2 points. I mentioned in the preseason that he and Burke have no chemistry and that continues to be the case. It feels like they're completely redundant since only one guy can take advantage of an isolation at a time. His defense was still active and energetic at least, but the line-up changes may claim him as a casualty.

Lance: Lance managed similar minutes to when he starts, in fact...probably 4 minutes too many. 19 minutes to drop 2 points, 1 assist and 1 board. He was 1/4 and didn't put his stamp on the game defensively either. Probably his worst performance of a season where he has been struggling but at least his intangibles stood out. The intangibles just didn't do their job last night.

Kanter: I saved Kanter for last so I could go on a rant, you're welcome. I honestly really liked a lot of what he did out there. He tried to get in KD's head; managed 13 boards off the bench, 8 points on 4/9 and also had 2 assists though he coupled those with 3 TO's. Kanter got less touches but still made 'em count and did a good job offensively over 20 minutes. But when he gets on the court following Mitch and Vonleh; it's visible...the defensive drop off inside is really, extremely visible. Yet Kanter spent the post game presser with a crappy attitude and an especially bad response about moving to the bench. It's understandable that he's not happy, but making a scene of it in spite of how well the starters is lame. If he wants more minutes, he should focus all of his energy into mastering his positioning on pick and roll defense. Otherwise, he needs to accept that on any decent team he's a bench big that goes in for some post ups and rebounds...that's it.

Kornet: Luke Kornet got two minutes to give us a solid reminder that Allonzo Trier really doesn't need to go to the G-League when his 45 day allowance with the pro team run out.

Fiz: Man, Fizdale managed to win my faith back with his line-up changes and then make me worried with his complete lack of accountability for the blow out fourth quarter. Fiz saw Trey Burke go off in the third and then stuck with the second unit for far too long into the fourth quarter. By the time the kids came back in, the Warriors were on fire and carrying a big lead. The youth had zero chance to break the momentum and the blow out ballooned more. When Fiz got asked about the loss, he alluded to players not believing in themselves or playing for a full 48 minutes. But they didn't play for a full 48 minutes because you benched the guys that got you to the fourth so close buddy. They weren't just loafing when the kids came out in the third quarter, they were fighting. Let's be fair though, the starting line-up took some courage. Kanter's salty presser shows you how delicate these matters are. So props there but also, don't expect the kids to believe in themselves if you don't put faith in them until it's too late...that's not fair...and the shaky finish is on you.
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1486 on: October 27, 2018, 12:10:57 PM »

Knicks team offense/defensive rating is 104/112

Hardaway Jr is at 109/114

Best on team are:


Vonleh -  139/106

then
Kanter - 119/109
Dotson - 118/109

On the low side

Thomas - 81/112
Hezonja - 83/112
Trier - 90/115
Ntlikina - 96/113
Burke - 100/115

- left out Knox/Kornet/Baker/Robinson - low minutes
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1487 on: October 27, 2018, 12:35:01 PM »

Pharoah - appreciate the sum up

But the only guy out there all game and NOT a kid is Lance Thomas.

And.......

a)  Fiz took his timeouts well enough - something I wasnt sure of (at 91-93 down was the first one, then at 8 down)

The "kids" came back in for last six minutes.  We were down EIGHT and lost by TWENTY EIGHT
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1488 on: October 27, 2018, 12:38:42 PM »

By the way - it is one game.  I would NOT say Kanter has "moved to the bench".
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 06:05:41 PM by kiidcarter8 »
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lesterluv

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1489 on: October 27, 2018, 01:03:56 PM »


The "kids" came back in for last six minutes.  We were down EIGHT and lost by TWENTY EIGHT

Oh come on.....the game was done. Knick lead gone. Warriors in full charge mode. Maybe he was playing to other priorities, but clearly Fiz f'd up from any game management standpoint.  This really ain't rocket science sometimes.
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kiidcarter8

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1490 on: October 27, 2018, 02:19:06 PM »

Not disagreeing

At 93-01, down 2, maybe sub there.....

Plan was probably six minute mark and he stayed with it.
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Nagel

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1491 on: October 27, 2018, 03:21:13 PM »

why would EK complain ( he didn't ) about the demotion.

he is a smart guy.  he knows his knick days are numbered.

Robinson will be here next year and EK won't be. 

as  the prophet stern says.

"this is what a rebuild looks like"
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facilitatorn

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1492 on: October 27, 2018, 03:24:56 PM »

Kanter thought we was going to get paid off his high volume work as a starter. Now it looks like he has to demonstrate real defensive chops to maintain a significant bench role enough to earn him someone’s MLE. He may not have said what he felt, but his feelings are definitely showing.
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bodiddley

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1493 on: October 27, 2018, 03:58:37 PM »

I like this kind of mix and match approach.
Where everybody gets some run, combos explored and such.
Competition.  you suck, you sit
We have a team of role players and backups.  Battle it out.
Let's see who can break out.  Who works together well.

Though the argument against it is that players get unhappy being jerked out of starting roles.  But if we had legit starters, we wouldn't need to explore myriad lineups.  For example, if Kanter wants to start, he needs to play better D.  Simple.  If he can't then he's a borderline player, and Fizz can see what Mitch can do v. starters.  Fizz has also played Kant and Mitch together on a few occasions.

Kant and Hardaway are the closest thing we have to legit starters, and there are a number of unheralded guys trying to catch up to Tim.  Dotson, the man of the moment, playing genuine two-way ball.

And yes, my mistake, Tim is shooting 37% on 3's.  Solid.  League average bumped up to 36% the past couple of years.  A bit frustrating because he could be around 40% if he was just a bit more judicious and didn't go for a couple of adrenaline shots per game.   Tim was around 31% last year on 3's.  And just 41% FG this year.

I'd like to see Franc get the PG start the next dozen plus games.  Burke as sparkplug backup.  And at some point, get Mud some minutes and action, if he earns it in practice.  But I'd really like Franc to get starting reps so when KZ comes back, Franc is ready to run the team.  Our best bet is developing chemistry among Franc - Knox - KZ going forward.  All young pups with skills.  Then whether Tim remains or Dotson is elevated or whatever.  Mix in some MitchRob.  Ditch Kanter.

If Franc falters, then find a PG in the draft. trade, FA.
Franc turning into Charlie Ward is our best chance of rebuilding quickly.  Win 23 games this year, get a Top 5 pick.  Another quality yute and we're on the right path.
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luee

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1494 on: October 27, 2018, 04:12:41 PM »

This is a rebuild {tank} season and coach is eyeballing the merchandise?
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chipstern

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Pharoah & BoD & Dawg
« Reply #1495 on: October 27, 2018, 04:49:33 PM »

Interesting posts.

I always look forward to Pharoah's analysis. 

As per criticisms of Fizz's sub moves down the stretch?

A) He is being encouraged to mix and match and see what he has going forward.

B) Message about defense certainly coming through loud and clear, which is why leaving the Burke Crew in too long was something of a tell.

C) But really, he could've had Clyde, Jerry Sloan, Dennis Rodman and Michael Cooper out there, and it is hard to see what difference it would've made.  Kevin Durant was simply Ungodly. 

I am a big Kanter fan, and would love for him to remain a Knick, but considering his cap hold, and that it would take THE FULL MONTY MAX to even get Durant to sniff our shorts, let alone nibble on our ears, well, what is Turkish for best of luck. 

Dotson.  Gobs of upside.  One thing I noticed early on, not to nitpick, is he has work to do regarding CREATING HIS OWN SHOT OFF THE DRIBBLE, which was apparent during his 0-6 opening.  That and the overlooked level of defense GS plays.  But when he gets the ball in rhythm, coming off of picks and screens, YES.  And he plays defense like he means it. 

Trier has come down to Earth, but that's okay.  Many of his turnovers came less from forcing up shots, as CONSCIOUSLY trying to create opportunities for his team mates.  Again, GS defense is not going to allow him to put on a show.  But his faux pas were sins of commission, not him going into heat check mode on every possession. 

My God, was that REALLY Frank's first start?  Impressive. 

Robinson & Vonleh together was very interesting.  Some lunch bucket defense. 

FIZZ?

Again, questions arising as to owning some of his end game decisions?  Fair enough. 

But leave us not dismiss what he got out of our gaggle of role players for three quarters, and how he is clearly getting through to the likes of Timmy and Frank.  Seeing Timmy bark at someone during a game over a defensive assignment or a help.  Priceless. 

He is about creating a culture, and trying to give everyone an honest look and an honest shot. 

But, as Pat Riley once put it: "I know you are ready, but are you PREPARED." 

Fizz is a nurturing presence, but I didn't see his fourth quarter comments as an unwillingness to OWN HIS FAUX PASS, rather, getting his charges to own their performances, and the necessity of not playing three quarters, but all 48. 

Players coming in and out of the starting lineup and rotations? 

Dotson & Robinson buried on the bench at the season's opening, now inserted into starting lineup and looking at real minutes. 

Frank as his leading minutes man at SF and off guard, now getting real run at the point, yet curiously, less cumulative minutes, giving Burke burn off the pine.  Frank and Timmy and Dotson a better match than Burke and Treier and Thomas.  Mudiay will get a long look in the near future.   

Hey, we didn't cave in the third quarter, and that is significant.  However, when the GS run came, my GOD, Durant was like, I don't know George Gervin meets John Havlichek meets Bernard King meets Dirk Nowitzki meets Steph Curry.  DAMN. 

Given that GS can offer Kevin a fifth year and upwards of 40 million per, I don't find the argument that he would want to define his own brand in the Big Apple compelling. 

But who knows. 

Durant and Kawhi are the two most intriguing narratives leading up to the summer swoon of 2019.  And both their respective teams are clicking on all cylinders. 

We shall see. 

Or as the Prophet Nagle puts it, THIS IS WHAT A REBUILD LOOKS LIKE. 

Anyway, Wade's comments on Fizdale's appeal at the very least suggests the door might be slightly ajar for a real free agent to take the bait. 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 04:52:05 PM by chipstern »
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facilitatorn

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1496 on: October 27, 2018, 05:41:12 PM »

Noah Vonleh actually does what Lance Thomas is supposed to be able to do.
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Nagel

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1497 on: October 27, 2018, 05:48:51 PM »

Nagel  not Nagle.

PS

Play Frank at the point and see if he can grow into the position.

if not we are still looking.
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chipstern

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Re: Knicks
« Reply #1498 on: October 27, 2018, 06:13:01 PM »

Nagel  not Nagle.

PS

Play Frank at the point and see if he can grow into the position.

if not we are still looking.

Bagle

Beguiling
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bodiddley

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Re: Pharoah & BoD & Dawg
« Reply #1499 on: October 27, 2018, 06:27:52 PM »

I am a big Kanter fan, and would love for him to remain a Knick, but considering his cap hold, and that it would take THE FULL MONTY MAX to even get Durant to sniff our shorts, let alone nibble on our ears, well, what is Turkish for best of luck.

Kanter really likes NY, and would be a fine backup C to KZ.  We could always renounce him (freeing up the cap hold), and then see what the market offers.  If he can't find a starting gig, or better than the $8M MLE (someone likely will dangle $10M or $12M, I suspect), we could re-sign him.

I was a harsh Kanter critic.  And his defense is still awfully problematic.  But he works hard, boards and scores inside, seems like a good teammate.  I also like the way he's taken to NYC and stood up to Erdogan at significant personal sacrifice.  He no doubt wants/expects a bigger role than 15-20 minute backup, but the NBA game has changed, making him anachronistic.

Quote
Given that GS can offer Kevin a fifth year and upwards of 40 million per, I don't find the argument that he would want to define his own brand in the Big Apple compelling. 

I really doubt KD would bail on a dynasty.
But I believe he's one of 3 players who make more in endorsements than NBA salary.  And he could count on likely an extra few $M off-court per year if he was in NY, up to an extra $10M if NYK actually won or became a true contender.

I think it's unlikely, but if you figure he'll get at least $20M that 5th year on a new contract.  Then he'd only need to make up $5M per year in extra endorsements over 5 years to get to the equivalent of $45M that 5th year.  Durant in NY would be a big deal and advertisers would jump on the bandwagon.

If KZ comes back healthy, Knox has a strong year and the Knix seem able to sort out the PG situation, we get a high draft pick, Knix might have a slight chance of landing KD. 
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