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Total Members Voted: 4

Voting closed: March 04, 2020, 12:32:27 PM


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Author Topic: Trump Administration  (Read 290527 times)

josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14700 on: June 05, 2019, 05:34:08 PM »

Led by the fucking nose

Too damn funny.

Led by the nose...by a completely factual and accurate recounting of an incident where DHS/ICE were dangerously unprepared to follow through with court-ordered reunification of families.

Court ordered, kiidcarter8.  Those heartwarming happy reunions would not have been necessary had DHS not separated them in the first place.  These weren't kids lost in the woods.  They were detained, without their parents, due to an intentionally cruel Trump Administration policy meant to deter asylum seekers.  But kiidcarter8 sees nothing of note here. 

Over your head apparently.  Maybe go back to discussing drunk Australian models misbehaving on flights.  That was a story that actually inspired you to do some research!

Our disagreement is not a matter of research.

Only because facts hold no sway over your opinions, as you have repeatedly demonstrated wrt politics. Kind of like Ward. Or with Bambi-ignorance when it comes to either protection from guns or the climate.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14701 on: June 05, 2019, 05:38:55 PM »



"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress" says nothing about how any determination for the Electors' voting.

Nor does anything in the 12th Amendment, or you would not have bitched and moaned about my not putting them in the same post.

You got bupkis.

No I have the Constitution.  The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.  And that system is an indirect election carried out through the Electoral College.
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.

You keep saying that, but the states that set up winner-take all *did* change things without a constitutional amendment. So, too, the states that changed it again, later. So, your premise has already been proven to be false.

And no, they are not trying to turn them into agents of other states. They are trying to have them respond to the national scenario, which is very different. Nobody said "If California votes X way, we will also vote X way." And, again, there is nothing in the Constitution that precludes such a thing. Nor does case law support you.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14702 on: June 05, 2019, 05:41:47 PM »

Quote
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.


Tenth amendment?  If the federal constitution doesn't expressly forbid states against some sort of popular vote conversion, then why wouldn't a state have that power to write it into their own laws?
The procedure  for naming electors in the Electoral College is defined in Article II of the  Constitution and delegated to the States.
The 10th Amendment reads:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


Therefore the states get to decide what to do. Thank you.

The states get to determine how they select their electors and whether or not to dictate distribution of them in certain ways. Indeed, it might even be that they could delegate their electors' selection to another state's legislature. Ought to be an interesting case!
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14703 on: June 05, 2019, 05:46:28 PM »

Sisolak’s decision has nothing to do with standing firm on constitutional grounds.
Sisolak's decision was not based on Constitutional grounds.

On that we agree.

What his reasoing was vs. what he says it was remains to be determined.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

whiskeypriest

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14704 on: June 05, 2019, 05:51:34 PM »

The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.

The overall purpose of the presidential election system is to elect a President.  The rule change Nevada proposed would not change that.

The question, which you are unable to articulate, would be if the courts see this rule change as only an end run around the electoral college.  And even if they did, this would be a textbook case of how a deeper interpretation of the Constitution needs to come to play to make a decision vs. some literal reading of the words written in the document (which you erroneously seem to think supports your case.)

The original purpose of the EC was a buffer against the provincial and misinformed masses.  The Electors were originally able to vote for whoever they wanted. Only later did it become customary for those electors to vote for the first past the post winner of the statewide popular vote, making the voting process itself pure formality (for all but two states anyway.)

So what is it for now?  I fully understand the argument that the EC supports smaller states who normally would get no attention in a nationwide race.  No, I don’t agree with this argument, and think in practice it now slices the other way, where New York and California and Texas are ignored while swing states wield all the power.   But what is to prevent a state from voluntarily putting itself in that position?  Why can’t they say “We will cast our votes, but defer to the whole country to tell us who to vote for?”

Nothing, from what I can see.  Certainly not anything in the Constitution.

Sure, someone would bring it to the courts, but having a case, let alone a “blatant” one?  That’s REDSTATEWAD partisanship speaking.  An argument he wouldn’t be making if the two recent candidates denied the Presidency despite winning the popular vote were Republicans.
You fail to understand the argument.
Nevada's law was vetoed because the Governor believed it was improper to force Nevadans' electoral college votes to go to someone who finished second  in the state's  winner-take-all election.

It is, in addition, blatantly unconstitutional since it violates Article 2 of the US Constitution that set uo the Electoral College and delegated the choosing of electors to the states.Moreover, delegated rights cannot be overturned without Congressional action.
This has nothing to do with whether there is a better system of selecting a President than the Electoral College. There is a constitutional path to change.  Nevada's law was not on that path.
Your argument is an incoherent mush. Same as it ever was.
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REDSTATEWARD

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14705 on: June 05, 2019, 06:29:27 PM »



"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress" says nothing about how any determination for the Electors' voting.

Nor does anything in the 12th Amendment, or you would not have bitched and moaned about my not putting them in the same post.

You got bupkis.

No I have the Constitution.  The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.  And that system is an indirect election carried out through the Electoral College.
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.
You keep saying that, but the states that set up winner-take all *did* change things without a constitutional amendment.
No. They didn’t. Article II gives the the right to elect electors anyway the states choose.
Nevada proposed doing away with electors effectively scrapping the Electoral College.
Blatantly unconstitutional

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LarryBnDC

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14706 on: June 05, 2019, 06:37:53 PM »



"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress" says nothing about how any determination for the Electors' voting.

Nor does anything in the 12th Amendment, or you would not have bitched and moaned about my not putting them in the same post.

You got bupkis.

No I have the Constitution.  The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.  And that system is an indirect election carried out through the Electoral College.
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.
You keep saying that, but the states that set up winner-take all *did* change things without a constitutional amendment.
No. They didn’t. Article II gives the the right to elect electors anyway the states choose.
Nevada proposed doing away with electors effectively scrapping the Electoral College.
Blatantly unconstitutional

Dude, you pulled that one waaaaaaay out your ass!
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arafura

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14707 on: June 05, 2019, 06:46:08 PM »

The science...there is climate change.
True.
The climate is always changing, Ice Ages come and go, glaciers started melting 15,000 years ago.
Long ago sea levels rose, and flooded the land bridge between Australia and India.

Sydney's dam is down to 50% capacity...water restrictions have been introduced.

No1 radio host has been telling the politicians for decades to build more dams....did they listen?   no.
Wouldn't surprise me if this time Sydney does run out of water.
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REDSTATEWARD

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14708 on: June 05, 2019, 06:48:04 PM »



"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress" says nothing about how any determination for the Electors' voting.

Nor does anything in the 12th Amendment, or you would not have bitched and moaned about my not putting them in the same post.

You got bupkis.

No I have the Constitution.  The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.  And that system is an indirect election carried out through the Electoral College.
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.
You keep saying that, but the states that set up winner-take all *did* change things without a constitutional amendment.
No. They didn’t. Article II gives the the right to elect electors anyway the states choose.
Nevada proposed doing away with electors effectively scrapping the Electoral College.
Blatantly unconstitutional

Dude, you pulled that one waaaaaaay out your ass!
Try reading the Constitution.
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arafura

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14709 on: June 05, 2019, 07:01:59 PM »

Methinks that some Britons, no ideas, are protesting Trump the man, rather than any dislike of America/ns.
Still, they should be treating the office of the President of the United States of America, and the person who holds that office...with a lot more respect.

Pity Trump will not be touring Australia...he would likely get a different perspective if he actually visited here.
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whiskeypriest

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14710 on: June 05, 2019, 07:51:35 PM »



"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress" says nothing about how any determination for the Electors' voting.

Nor does anything in the 12th Amendment, or you would not have bitched and moaned about my not putting them in the same post.

You got bupkis.

No I have the Constitution.  The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.  And that system is an indirect election carried out through the Electoral College.
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.
You keep saying that, but the states that set up winner-take all *did* change things without a constitutional amendment.
No. They didn’t. Article II gives the the right to elect electors anyway the states choose.
Nevada proposed doing away with electors effectively scrapping the Electoral College.
Blatantly unconstitutional

Dude, you pulled that one waaaaaaay out your ass!
Try reading the Constitution.
You should try understanding it.
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facilitatorn

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14711 on: June 05, 2019, 07:58:16 PM »

Methinks that some Britons, no ideas, are protesting Trump the man, rather than any dislike of America/ns.
Still, they should be treating the office of the President of the United States of America, and the person who holds that office...with a lot more respect.

Pity Trump will not be touring Australia...he would likely get a different perspective if he actually visited here.

If you get him you can keep him. Sydney can drink his flop sweat. Enjoy.
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josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14712 on: June 05, 2019, 08:14:33 PM »



"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress" says nothing about how any determination for the Electors' voting.

Nor does anything in the 12th Amendment, or you would not have bitched and moaned about my not putting them in the same post.

You got bupkis.

No I have the Constitution.  The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.  And that system is an indirect election carried out through the Electoral College.
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.
You keep saying that, but the states that set up winner-take all *did* change things without a constitutional amendment.
No. They didn’t. Article II gives the the right to elect electors anyway the states choose.
Nevada proposed doing away with electors effectively scrapping the Electoral College.


Nevada proposed no such thing. They proposed to have their electors vote the way the national vote went. Why you think that is so different from "All electors will vote for the winner of this state" or "not all electors will vote with the state, only some. Others will go with the District" is beyond me unless this is another of your self-serving things where if we had done it the way this law proposes, then Clinton would have won.

Which is a normal motivation for you, rather than truth.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

josh

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14713 on: June 05, 2019, 08:16:37 PM »

The science...there is climate change.
True.
The climate is always changing, Ice Ages come and go, glaciers started melting 15,000 years ago.
Long ago sea levels rose, and flooded the land bridge between Australia and India.

Sydney's dam is down to 50% capacity...water restrictions have been introduced.

No1 radio host has been telling the politicians for decades to build more dams....did they listen?   no.
Wouldn't surprise me if this time Sydney does run out of water.

Building more dams would not have alleviated this problem, but... why bother talking to somebody who thinks this rising heat is like the others and has decided that if the seas are going to rise we should just let everybody die and our world to fall apart.

Given that you see nothing wrong with the US government killing kids, I guess I should not be surprised.
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The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress, and he became the judge and jury." ~Lindsey Graham

REDSTATEWARD

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Re: Trump Administration
« Reply #14714 on: June 05, 2019, 08:47:24 PM »



"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress" says nothing about how any determination for the Electors' voting.

Nor does anything in the 12th Amendment, or you would not have bitched and moaned about my not putting them in the same post.

You got bupkis.

No I have the Constitution.  The appointment of electors is a delegated right granted to the states by the Constitution and while that right can be amended( i.e.12th ) it cannot be amended without Congressional approval NOR  in any manner that changes the overall purpose of the presidential election system.  And that system is an indirect election carried out through the Electoral College.
What the Nevada Legislature was trying to do a was convert Nevada ELECTORS into agents of other states.
Blatantly unconstitutional.
You keep saying that, but the states that set up winner-take all *did* change things without a constitutional amendment.
No. They didn’t. Article II gives the the right to elect electors anyway the states choose.
Nevada proposed doing away with electors effectively scrapping the Electoral College.


Nevada proposed no such thing.
LOL  That was the sole purpose of the Nevada Law. It took a Governor with common sense to deep-six such  a stupid (not to mention blatantly unconstitutional) idea.
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