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Reports of protests are overblown. A few incidents around the country, but nothing major.

5 (45.5%)

A few major incidents in capitals, but nothing much in DC.

5 (45.5%)

A major incident in DC, but nothing much around the country.

0 (0%)

More than 10 capitals have major upheavals, but nothing much in DC.

0 (0%)

A major incident in DC plus more than 10 capitals with significant upheavals.

1 (9.1%)

More than half the capitals around the country have problems with protesters, but DC is quiet.

0 (0%)

DC has major problems, while more than half the capitals around the country also have considerable trouble with protesters.

0 (0%)

Huge disruption to the day.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2021, 10:49:21 PM

[bambu.]

 Black people are closed fist raised chanting "Black power".
White people  are allowed to do the same and chant "White power"...or should be allowed to...equality.

[Kam]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-lives-matter-mural-vandalized-martinez-california-hate-crime-charges/

Nichole Anderson, 42, and David Nelson, 53

Both defendants have been charged with violation of civil rights, vandalism under $400 and possession of tools to commit vandalism or graffiti. The alleged offenses are exempt from a specific bail amount due to the current county bail schedule in light of the COVID-19 pandemic.

If convicted, they could face up to a year in county jail. 

[barton]

Chomsky underscored the truth that cancel -culture
bigots aren’t all dressed alike.

Celebrities and others profiting off their fame have the right to hold any views they like.  Individuals can choose to stop following the cult of a celebrity whose views differ from their own.   Bill Cosby thought it was cool to roofie girls and have sex with them.  I can choose to stop glorifying him and his works.  He cannot separate his deeds from his art.   I feel the same way about Loius CK.  If you use your position as a celebrity and abuse your power and hurt people you deserve any form of censure that any individual by themselves has the power to weild.  If enough individuals choose to weild that power then you are effectively cancelled.  Cancel culture is the check and balance to whoever chooses to use one's personal fame to take advantage of others.  If Roseanne Baar wants to spout her hate she can.  ABC is under no obligation to fuel her celebrity after that.  Cancel culture is bigotry against bigots. . Bigotry on bigorty cancels out.  Cancelling out the original bigot.  I'm all for it.

I would go so far as to say calling out bigotry is not necessarily bigotry.  It can potentially become bigotry if you start to see everyone of a certain class and culture as a cracker, e.g.  But calling out specific words and actions as discriminatory, repressive, harmful...I don't see that as anything but constructive if it speaks to that person's true intentions.  And, of course, it's so American that anyone would think depriving someone of great wealth is "ruining their life."  No, not really. 

[NeedsAdjustments]

I do personally object to cancel culture when it does something like (my daughter passed this along to me) insist that I not shop at Home Depot because its CEO donated a crap-ton of money to Trump's 2020 campaign.  That's just wrong.  The guy can donate his money wherever he wants to.  And he's not going to change his political views, no matter what customers buy or don't buy from him.  If anything, a boycott of Home Depot would only make him more rigid in his ideology and less open to engaging in any reasoned discussion.

On that I have to disagree.  This is an area where it clearly makes sense.

Wealthy business owners like the owner of Home Depot or, say, the owner of Soul Cycle/Equinox use their money to push for favorable treatment of their businesses and personal finances, and the result has been an economy that more and more over the last  forty years has tilted the field toward the already rich and powerful.

As Kam said, one small way people without that kind of power and cash can have their voice heard is through the products they buy, and establishments they frequent.  I invest in companies that employ environmentally sound practices, use products and vendors that are considering how their actions affect the earth.  For example.  And yeah, if I was a Soul Cycle devotee and found out that its owner was hosting a huge fundraiser in the Hamptons for Donald Trump, I'd switch to Flywheel or buy a  Peloton. 

It won't be enough to tilt the field back to level, sure.  And of course these guys will still donate money to politicians that give them favorable regulatory treatment.  But I can make sure that it isn't my money they are using to screw over the rest of us.

[NeedsAdjustments]

Chomsky underscored the truth that cancel -culture
bigots aren’t all dressed alike.

Celebrities and others profiting off their fame have the right to hold any views they like.  Individuals can choose to stop following the cult of a celebrity whose views differ from their own.   Bill Cosby thought it was cool to roofie girls and have sex with them.  I can choose to stop glorifying him and his works.  He cannot separate his deeds from his art.   I feel the same way about Loius CK.  If you use your position as a celebrity and abuse your power and hurt people you deserve any form of censure that any individual by themselves has the power to weild.  If enough individuals choose to weild that power then you are effectively cancelled.  Cancel culture is the check and balance to whoever chooses to use one's personal fame to take advantage of others.  If Roseanne Baar wants to spout her hate she can.  ABC is under no obligation to fuel her celebrity after that.  Cancel culture is bigotry against bigots. . Bigotry on bigorty cancels out.  Cancelling out the original bigot.  I'm all for it.

I would go so far as to say calling out bigotry is not necessarily bigotry.  It can potentially become bigotry if you start to see everyone of a certain class and culture as a cracker, e.g.  But calling out specific words and actions as discriminatory, repressive, harmful...I don't see that as anything but constructive if it speaks to that person's true intentions.  And, of course, it's so American that anyone would think depriving someone of great wealth is "ruining their life."  No, not really.

Another example of conservative misuse of a valid concept.

When they support bigotry, they resent being called out on it.  See it as a weapon.  So as is their way, they try to turn that weapon around on the people they see as their attackers. 

We went through this on this very board, when the usual suspects tried to argue that the real racists are the people calling out racism.  Nonsensical Trumpist thinking.

[bodiddley]

Some people believe China has fiddled the books with numbers.

Many countries likely have.
A patient with multiple health problems contracts the virus and dies.  Or dies and then in the post-mortem is found to be positive.  It can be subjective how to record such a death.  I suspect many gov'ts have tried to keep numbers down to look like they did a better job.  Specifically I wouldn't trust the Russian, Turkish, or Pakistan numbers at all.  But even if you double the Chinese numbers, China did a better job than every major Western European country.  And I haven't heard any evidence/allegation that China covered up such outbreaks.  The sketchiest numbers in China are probably from Wuhan and Hubei province where the outbreak was a raging crisis and reporting/recording wasn't a huge priority early on..

From what I witnessed in Shanghai, the measures taken were pretty thorough.  (Though they could have been better at the airport).  And there was no significant outbreak here.  As I mentioned before, one of the country's top hospitals in Shanghai sent over 350 medical personnel to Wuhan during the crisis.  They didn't return until May 1. 

I still don't think the virus is that hard to contain and limit.  It just takes an 8-10 week strong lockdown, obligatory mask wearing, no large gatherings, temp checks, compliance, testing, contact tracing.  Basically having a professional medical strategy and implementing it well.

Look at last month's mini-outbreak in Beijing.  The gov't did some localized lockdowns, contact traced, disinfected the market, closed schools again and got the outbreak under control.   Last I saw it was a little over 400 infections.

[bodiddley]

They thought ignoring it and pushing for reopening was the best way to get Trump re-elected.  That's really it.  That's what it comes down to.

Maybe you're right.  But I'm not sure how ignoring an infectious and potentially deadly virus makes any sense.  And then you add reopenings, meaning more gatherings and human contact, and greater transmission is inevitable.

So they were just hoping to get lucky instead of doing anything constructive?
I still find this hard to fathom.

As for Sweden, it is a more remote outpost, with more responsible citizens.  Of course if they simply went in for a lassez faire approach with masks, they might have done all right.  There was no way that big crowded international USofA was ever not going to get hit.  Once the outbreak flared up in Italy it was clear to me that the US needed to get prepared but fast.  That was circa Feb 21.  Hell, China was a clear warning to the US and world.

But clearly starting early and locking down tightly for ~10 weeks and reopening gradually is the way to go.  You not only protect health and lives but also the economy will rebound faster.

I don't understand how the GOP doesn't realize that if you allow outbreaks, not only do you get a medical emergency and human suffering, but people voluntarily stop going out and to work and the economy closes up due to the virus and infections.  So it's much better to do a controlled closure and reopen gradually when it's safe.  China isn't talking about having to live with the virus for years.  Folks in the US are.

Hopefully a fairly good vaccine will come along soon, otherwise CV-19 could hamper a significant chunk of the Biden's term. 

[bodiddley]

Generally,  had a pretty good belly-laugh at the thought of Ward citing Noam Chomsky as somehow supportive of his mindset.

I watched the Bush 41 election returns at my law school.  Pretty demoralizing.  On my way back home I stopped at a friend's apartment, and he already had the consolation bong out and the Tv tuned to PBS.  And they were interviewing Noam Chomsky, who was explaining very precisely how a Bush victory meant more environmental destruction and wars and inequity and misery for the poor.  And even though he talked calmly in near-apocalyptic terms, it was at least reassuring that someone understood and could articulate the awfulness of a 3rd Reagan term, in an election the Dems shouldn't have lost.  And my buddy always had good weed.

It's funny how quaint that seems in hindsight.  The last two GOP presidents since have been insane disasters -- W Bush crashing the economy and getting us entangled in costly endless wars and Trump running a chaos presidency until he decided it would be okay to ignore an epidemic and let Americans die in bulk.
Republicans like G HW Bush hardly exist anymore.

Sidenote:  I once voted for Chomsky for president.  I mulled over who I would want and trust the most to lead the country, and Chomsky was a clear preference.

[bodiddley]

  There was a study out last week which primarily compared deaths this year to previous years and concluded that CV-19 deaths were 27% undercounted in the US. It's pretty easy to do 25% undercount math in your head, just add 1/4 more than whatever the official death count is.

(pssst - yo......it's actually add 33%)

Even easier mental arithmetic.  But I was referencing a specific study which had a result of 27% undercount based on excess deaths.  Other research might have different numbers.

But wasn't it just last week or the one before when you were claiming that CV-19 deaths were being over-reported?  Or was that Red who was on that phony line?
In any case, that has been one GOP dodge/falsehood. 

But I think all through this the lesson is that the numbers are approximate.  It's taken a while to seep into the mainstream that Actual Infections are likely 10x the confirmed number. 

And I'd like to see hospitalization numbers, not just deaths.

[kiidcarter8]

What are the Sweden numbers by age - cases/deaths?

Please point to which States met the guidelines for reopening and are now seeing case increases.



You can probably dig and find that.

You can probably dig and find that.

Yeah - pay attention, idiot.

[kiidcarter8]

But wasn't it just last week or the one before when you were claiming that CV-19 deaths were being overreported?  Or was that Red who was on that phony line?



heh

[kiidcarter8]

And I'd like to see hospitalization numbers, not just deaths.


Me too -

its why I asked

A statement was made on MSNBC today that it was 15% of those testing positive

Seems high

[Kam]

They thought ignoring it and pushing for reopening was the best way to get Trump re-elected.  That's really it.  That's what it comes down to.

Hopefully a fairly good vaccine will come along soon, otherwise CV-19 could hamper a significant chunk of the Biden's term.

Reasons why the GOP didn't care about fielding a proper response to the COVID threat

1. Didn't want to damage the economy because getting re-elected was the priority
2. The people dying were mostly non members of the work-force, and were collecting social security
3. If Trump lost, the DEMS would have to rebuild and it becomes their problem setting the GOP up to retake any seats lost

But maybe most of all, they're just unprepared, incompetent, too lazy and or uninterested in actually helping people in need, and really only about holding power for themselves and their special interests.

[Kam]

What are the Sweden numbers by age - cases/deaths?

Please point to which States met the guidelines for reopening and are now seeing case increases.



You can probably dig and find that.

You can probably dig and find that.

Yeah - pay attention, idiot.

Did you say something?   I see words but as usual no point made. 

[bodiddley]

And I'd like to see hospitalization numbers, not just deaths.


A statement was made on MSNBC today that it was 15% of those testing positive
Seems high

Not really for areas experiencing outbreaks.  Those who get tested are the ones experiencing symptoms (plus some were exposed to people who have).  If 10x the positives are also infected, then you're only talking about something like 1.5% of infections resulting in hospitalization.