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Reports of protests are overblown. A few incidents around the country, but nothing major.

5 (45.5%)

A few major incidents in capitals, but nothing much in DC.

5 (45.5%)

A major incident in DC, but nothing much around the country.

0 (0%)

More than 10 capitals have major upheavals, but nothing much in DC.

0 (0%)

A major incident in DC plus more than 10 capitals with significant upheavals.

1 (9.1%)

More than half the capitals around the country have problems with protesters, but DC is quiet.

0 (0%)

DC has major problems, while more than half the capitals around the country also have considerable trouble with protesters.

0 (0%)

Huge disruption to the day.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2021, 10:49:21 PM

[HamiltonIII]

Takeaway here is that bankshot1 is definitely someone who readily admits when he is wrong.

Which is fine, thats his right, but it remains a prism from which I will view his posts (including those from last night) on the subject.

Four sides do a prism make.

Well, there are triangular prisms, aren't there? They have 5 faces.

Unlike whiskepriest, who has 2 faces.

[Hairy Lime]

Takeaway here is that bankshot1 is definitely someone who readily admits when he is wrong.

Which is fine, thats his right, but it remains a prism from which I will view his posts (including those from last night) on the subject.

He also never, ever, lets.an argument go. Ever.

True. But his default setting, unlike yours, isn't to label anyone who disagrees with him as a racist.

You hypocritical mass of self-righteous idiocy.

No, not.everyone who disagrees with me is a racist. YOU are.

[oilcan]

Zero hyperbole from me.  The US destabilized the ME by invading Iraq, and overthrowing the Saddam/Baathist regime.  The war and aftermath/mess in Afghanistan similarly destabilized Central Asia.

Thanks Bo-Its helpful to understand your agenda when you place Ground Zero of Middle-East instability at 1991. That provides me another prism to understand your POV.

Zero hypocrisy.  No idea even what you might be referring to.  Make arguments not assertions.

I was mocking Boz, and his intentional and inaccurate hyperbole, and his almost immediate 180 spin from an earlier post regarding shared responsibilities.

I eagerly await your next post about shared responsibilities for the situation in Israel. It will be your first.

I could care less if you do not understand a conversation I'm having with another poster.

As to "Adolph" that was an intended TIC reference meant in part to trigger clueless humorless moron(s) who would make far more of it than was intended.

You were trolling yourself? I thought you were just being an asshole.

You didn't originally agree with my post about the shared failure, regarding your post which assigned fault as "Israel failure"?

Sorry I hurt your feeling Eva

Let me point out something I noticed earlier in WP's posts:  he said the discussion was about Israel's role in ME instability, etc.  That does not imply or argue that other actors have not also failed in various ways.  It just means that Israel, backed as it is by an extremely powerful ally who gives it billions of dollars, is deserving of some focused discussion that trains the lens on its particular policies and actions.

Do Palestinian militant groups suck in various ways?  They sure do.  And they are a response to the powerful Israel and its various usurpations and abuses. 

[oilcan]

Iran is the threat to stabilization in the region, and in Central Asia. Wake the fuck up.

This is what I was responding to, by pointing out that the USofA has done a huge amount of destabilizing the ME in the past two decades. 

Yes.  Overall, big pic, it is the United States that has been the main destabilizing force in the ME for a long time, and it is the US role that has engendered many of the other groups and factions and cults and so on that have become disruptive forces.  We really suck at foreign policy, mainly because we like to SUCK OIL wherever we can hoover it up.  Our brand of geopolitics and capitalism and gunboat diplomacy has no peer in disrupting and destabilizing other parts of the world. 

[Hairy Lime]

Zero hyperbole from me.  The US destabilized the ME by invading Iraq, and overthrowing the Saddam/Baathist regime.  The war and aftermath/mess in Afghanistan similarly destabilized Central Asia.

Thanks Bo-Its helpful to understand your agenda when you place Ground Zero of Middle-East instability at 1991. That provides me another prism to understand your POV.

Zero hypocrisy.  No idea even what you might be referring to.  Make arguments not assertions.

I was mocking Boz, and his intentional and inaccurate hyperbole, and his almost immediate 180 spin from an earlier post regarding shared responsibilities.

I eagerly await your next post about shared responsibilities for the situation in Israel. It will be your first.

I could care less if you do not understand a conversation I'm having with another poster.

As to "Adolph" that was an intended TIC reference meant in part to trigger clueless humorless moron(s) who would make far more of it than was intended.

You were trolling yourself? I thought you were just being an asshole.

You didn't originally agree with my post about the shared failure, regarding your post which assigned fault as "Israel failure"?

Sorry I hurt your feeling Eva

Let me point out something I noticed earlier in WP's posts:  he said the discussion was about Israel's role in ME instability, etc.  That does not imply or argue that other actors have not also failed in various ways.  It just means that Israel, backed as it is by an extremely powerful ally who gives it billions of dollars, is deserving of some focused discussion that trains the lens on its particular policies and actions.

That obvious reading would not comport with his agenda.

[bankshot1]

Boz is still having a difficult time with the concept of shared failure, and he seems more comfortable with assigning full blame to Israel. 

And fwiw his addenda to just focus on Israel's role came after our brief discussion and agrement about shared failure.

To put it in the context that my favorite Spartan might understand, he moved the goal posts.

OC I would suggest that characterizing militant Palestininans as "sucking" does not truly capture all the bad actors in the decades old Middle East conflict.

[josh]

Takeaway here is that bankshot1 is definitely someone who readily admits when he is wrong.

Which is fine, thats his right, but it remains a prism from which I will view his posts (including those from last night) on the subject.

Four sides do a prism make.

Well, there are triangular prisms, aren't there? They have 5 faces.

Unlike whiskepriest, who has 2 faces.

And six faced prisms and more. Four is one option.

But it was just a play on words.

[josh]

At the risk of having this get lost in the Middle East...

The National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine have produced a study on how to substantially reduce child poverty in the United States.

While one can buy the book for $70, it is available online at no cost:
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25246/a-roadmap-to-reducing-child-poverty?fbclid=IwAR13v113ovyOddMpzgYBQbJnELK8J_1qc8JAcfVCBYgi7ldc3ME_vn7DkDw

I am not even close to done with it, as it only arrived on my screen this morning and the thing's 600 pages, but I am finding it to be compelling (if not exactly pleasurable) reading.

Shared for your consideration.

[barton]

When I read some posts here, I am reminded of Ed Koch:   “If you agree with me on nine out of 12 issues, vote for me. If you agree with me on 12 out of 12, see a psychiatrist.”

We don't have to all agree.  We don't have to all agree on to what degree Banks and Boz agreed, and then disagreed.  I value both their postings, and usually look forward to their quips and comments. 

And prisms are any shape that has a constant cross-section.  You can't have a four-sided prism because a tetrahedron doesn't have a constant cross section. 

[HamiltonIII]

Takeaway here is that bankshot1 is definitely someone who readily admits when he is wrong.

Which is fine, thats his right, but it remains a prism from which I will view his posts (including those from last night) on the subject.

He also never, ever, lets.an argument go. Ever.

True. But his default setting, unlike yours, isn't to label anyone who disagrees with him as a racist.

You hypocritical mass of self-righteous idiocy.

No, not.everyone who disagrees with me is a racist. YOU are.

Yeah, well, you apparently don't know what that means, you guilt ridden turd.

[kiidcarter8]

http://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/how-trump-reshaping-american-opinion/596335/

Somewhat encouraging.  I hope others here took time to read this.   And hope that all these Americans rejecting Trump's views show up at the polls.

They will

In Cali and New York

[HamiltonIII]

"Do Palestinian militant groups suck in various ways?  They sure do.  And they are a response to the powerful Israel and its various usurpations and abuses."

Uh, no.

Imagine you live in NJ, and the Staten Islanders' stated goal is the elimination of NJ. Why? Because Staten Islanders once had taken NJ away, and then settled there, but the NJ peoples returned to their original homeland, improved the place, and made it one of the best places to live in the region. And as such, the SI peoples are so fucking pissed off that they are constantly trying to either lob rockets into NJ or smuggle suicide bombers in to kill NJeans, on a regular basis. So, you say, as a Jew Jerseyan, enough of this SI. I'm cutting off your fucking supplies that are coming in from the Texans and Virginians, with the full support of the Pennsylvanians, who also hate NJ.

 So, you keep supplies from going into SI,and immediate danger to NJ, but suddenly other groups are smuggling shit in and firing rockets into your cities across the northern border with NY. We'll call that the Wawayanda Strip. So, NJ, says fuck this shit, and pushes its army into the Wawayanda Strip and says you can't come in thru that border anymore, either, suckers. And, since you are engaged in war, we'll take this strip, because historically, it's among the best ways to protect your country.

Now, the Pennsylvanians to the West have no great love for you, though they claim to be peaceful, but that is only because you've kicked their ass a few times, and especially in the Six Day war. They are among the leaders of anti-NJ literature which they sponsor and send around the rest of the world. NJ's only ally is California. The Californians help as much as they can, because they can understand the culture of and appreciate the NJ people. But they are far away. They also recognize that you are the only country in the region with a democratic form of government.

But, lo and behold, the Californians find out that Texas is supplying goods and arms and weapons to the Pennsylvanians (who by the way refused to take in any of the SI native peoples, as they aren't pure enough Pennsylvanians), and to the Wawayanda Strip rebels who have sucked down all that propaganda. California then runs a covert operation to hamstring Texas as it is invested in NJ.

So there is NJ, protecting itself from all sides, with the help of the Californians. And your response is, as a Californian who came in late to the party, and didn't know or didn't care to know the history of NJ, "Uh...wait. Look how they treat those people from Staten Island! They're so mean. They're like Germans in the 1930's."

That's the story, morning glory.

[bankshot1]

The end of WW2 and the start of the Cold War and the crumbling British colonial empire and oil were all huge factors in setting the table for the chaos that followed. And it could be argued the Middle East was the first Cold War battlefield. Russia chose the Arab states (Egypt, Syria) and the US and England backed Israel. and then Saudi Arabia and Iran   

let the fun begin!

[HamiltonIII]

The end of WW2 and the start of the Cold War and the crumbling British colonial empire and oil were all huge factors in setting the table for the chaos that followed. And it could be argued the Middle East was the first Cold War battlefield. Russia chose the Arab states (Egypt, Syria) and the US and England backed Israel. and then Saudi Arabia and Iran   

Correct.

[facilitatorn]

Iran is the threat to stabilization in the region, and in Central Asia. Wake the fuck up.

This is what I was responding to, by pointing out that the USofA has done a huge amount of destabilizing the ME in the past two decades.  You could also add in Libya, though I was in favor of removing Qaddafi when possible, as he was responsible for destabilizing a half dozen African countries.  But their should have been a post-Qaddafi plan.  If you want to delve into history, we can talk about the time the CIA led a coup and helped assassinate the democratically elected leader of Iran.

Interestingly, Iran has increasingly become a status quo power in the ME and Central Asia.  Iran supports and partially controls the democratically elected gov't in Iraq.  Iran supports the recognized gov't of Syria, and is actually legally involved in the civil war there, as they were invited in by the Syrian Gov't.  Iran was important in rolling back ISIS and removing it from Iraq & Syria.  Iran has taken in a fair amount of Afghan refugees, mainly Shiites under attack from the Taliban. 

Now you might not like their allies and the status quo they support.  But they have become a stakeholder intent on bolstering and stabilizing the gov't of Iraq and Syria.  Iranian interests and presence in these countries permits certain deals and accommodations to be reached.  Though the US currently has no interest in doing so.

I'd also add that Saudi Arabia has been hugely disruptive in the ME.  With its horrendous war on poverty-stricken Yemen.  Kidnapping and forcing the PM of Lebanon to resign.  Putting the now recently ex-dictator of Sudan and the head of Lebanon and likely other leaders on their payroll.  Killing and dismembering a regime critic in Turkey.  Bullying and embargoing Qatar.  And that's just the last few years.  Not even going back to financing and spreading fundamentalist Islam (Wahhabism) throughout Central Asia and other places.

I’m hoping this post doesn’t get lost in the dog pile.